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#144768 - 05/16/05 11:38 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
I work many of my kata applications from the clinch. My grappling, therefore, tends to focus on clinch control and getting me in a position where I can execute the only throw I'm any good at - the hip-toss. I also use a lot of Chinto and Wansu for leg scoops, single- and double-leg takedowns.

Not that I'm any good at these, mind you, but I see them, and I train them whenever I can.
_________________________
Formerly Vash

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#144769 - 05/17/05 12:43 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

Hi AgentT,

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.

Having this in mind Classical Kara-te does have ground grappling in it. However it was, is, and will never be as advanced as Judo or BJJ. Main reason is because a Classical Pracitioner is using ground grappling to gain positional dominance to continue to strike. However if an arm or a neck presents its self... the practitioner will take it with a BASIC yet effective break or choke (blood or wind). However if you wish to really work on your ground... take JohnL's advice and seek instruction from Judo or BJJ.

Kind regards,

Raul




I agree with many of you that karate as seen today is mostly a striking art, especially at the mudansha levels.

To say that karate doesn't have an option for every range and situation is a subjective statement. I have always known it does.

For example in the kata Chinto you have a succession of three movements in the middle of the form which can be applied as a very wicked throw. This is done in renoji dachi (L-Stance) with the lead hand tearing down to the front from a high crossed wrist position. The rear hand stays above shoulder height, the arm bent at the elbow fist up. Your lead hand looks to be executing gedan uke (low block), but is not in this bunkai oyo. Th throwing action is done with spiraling force, the lead (left) hand grabs the hair (or neck) and the rear hand grabs the the opponents right arm. The move before this sets up the throw with a kasushi move and double arm lock from in close. The last "throw" involves spinning counterclokwise (about 270 degrees) and then throwing the attacker. Very cool app..

Anyway following this, right after the last throw, a small step-back with the right leg occurs leaving you in a moderate forward stance. Your lead arm is straightened (bunkai can be stiff-arm to control a low shoot for your legs) and instead of fighting the takedown attempt you go forward with the lead leg grab attempt, bringing your right leg up to a kneeling position beside your front leg. You then kneel down sitting the majority of your weight on your back leg which is under your body and not posted out as in a BJJ or Judo knee-on-chest. Your front leg/shin/knee can push up against his neck or head, and you can squeeze your thighs together and sit down with your weight in the middle to help keep his arm trapped as you finish with a collar choke, trachea crush, carotid occlusion (eagle's claw choke) or other finishing move. The back leg can rest on the side of his rib cage or on his chest. This keeps him from rolling away from you or from getting up.

The reason you would do this type of maneuver, with no leg posted out from your body, is so that your legs are under you for controlling the tackler with your full body weight and/or to get straight up very quickly.

This bunkai is very specific but the movements in the kata allow for multiple interpretations. All of these could be practiced in a friendly sparring session, until you work the kinks out. For detailed groundwork as it relates to submission grappling for your primary avenue of defense you should seek out a good catch wrestling, sambo, BJJ or Judo dojo which teaches newaza.

The groundwork taken from ti, chin-na and tegumi or even AJJ, is geared towards quick finishes and devastating throws. It is not for ring fighting, but the ring fighting stuff is very good to know for SD too. Definitely.

I wonder sometimes if what I know from the Okinawan karate I've done would work in a MMAs situation. I can't say. Many of my friends have rolled with me and they feel that I can definitely take care of myself. I've asked them questions concerning their GJJ principles and sometimes my observations make them say "let's try it and see" and it usually works very well. I know my limited groundfighting skills have served me well on the street at least once, and the guy was a heavyweight wrestler in HS as well as being a Thai guy who had studied Muay Thai his entire life. I actually went down to the ground like he wanted at the end of it and choked him out with one hand from a double head-lock position (he had me and I had him). Of course I had homies to get my back in case someone wanted to put the boot down and I had really finished the fight with several blows, the first being the fight decider in my opinion.

There is grappling for every range in karate and specifically the older kata. I guess the Shorinkan sensei I had in the P.I. who would have us practice sprawling, breakfalling and throwing across a wooden floor was a rarity. We were always told to try and stay on our feet, but he also taught us the fundamentals of fighting on the ground or when to use a takedown versus a strike. Wrestlers were a huge problem at my HS and use to bully certain karate guys, boxers, kickboxers and kung fu'ers. Many a striker got stole and beat to a pulp. My sensei knew this so he trained us accordingly.

If you specialize in grappling you do some type of wrestling. If you want to specialize in striking most would say do boxing or kickboxing , even the Gracie family learns to box. Where I grew up if you wanted to cover all bases in a streamlined relevant curriculum you did good Okinawan karate, or even styles like JKD, Kuntaw or Silat. Dumog was also a good style that included striking and lots of wrasslin'.

Later warriors.

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#144770 - 05/17/05 06:44 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Quote:

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.





Raul, I do not agree.
I use whatever presents itself. I agree that it is easier to initiate a lock when opponent is not strubbling against (the reason for softening) but I have used grappling, throwing, joint locks and finger locks in response to offensive moves in 'real' fights.
A technique we frequently use in sparring at the dojo is putting a lock on the thumb joint of a clenched fist.
You have to be on your toes for the response if your technique missed it's intent and usually you are then in a not so good position tactically. As such striking gives more opportunities because of the distance you are working.
I am not implying that your tactic is not good, just that I also use ti in response or as offensive move without first
atemi waza to soften the opposition. However you are right that in it's core it is a striking art and that the mojority of techniques used are atemi-waza.

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#144771 - 05/17/05 10:40 AM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Raul Perez]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Jujitsu was taught as a part of my karate class raul. I got plenty of ground methods to go off of. I was just interested in Karate style grappling methods, since they seem to be rarely taught effectivly. The karate grappling methods I've studied are etheir stand up or methods done in the process of recovering but the stand up methods do work on the ground just as well. It does surprise me how little grappling is taught in karate, seeing as how okinawan ti was mostly grappling. Although we do soften with strikes but that makes more sense then going in and risk the attacker being able to pull you down with him.

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#144772 - 05/17/05 10:31 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
The Karate I study has very effective grappling techniques. Look up Seiyu Oyata's system. That is what I study.
_________________________
"I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey"

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#144773 - 05/17/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

Jujitsu was taught as a part of my karate class raul. I got plenty of ground methods to go off of. I was just interested in Karate style grappling methods, since they seem to be rarely taught effectivly. The karate grappling methods I've studied are etheir stand up or methods done in the process of recovering but the stand up methods do work on the ground just as well. It does surprise me how little grappling is taught in karate, seeing as how okinawan ti was mostly grappling. Although we do soften with strikes but that makes more sense then going in and risk the attacker being able to pull you down with him.




Read my post. Okinawan (real) karate has plenty of grappling. In fact I find that the grappling inherent in a good Okinawan system equals or exceeds that of JJJ. And it's never nice or "soft" in intent. You can't really breakfall with many of the throws either.

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#144774 - 05/18/05 04:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
do you have any links to this superior okinawan grappling? I was just curious cause i always wondered about that myself and have never seen any US instructors or any japanese instructors demonstrate grappling that was already in their karate.

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#144775 - 05/18/05 11:39 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Petjut84]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

do you have any links to this superior okinawan grappling? I was just curious cause i always wondered about that myself and have never seen any US instructors or any japanese instructors demonstrate grappling that was already in their karate.




Nope it ain't gonna be that easy or commercial Mr. Sarcastic. Search like I did for over a decade or when you're in SA, Tx. hit me up on here and I'll twist you like a pretzel if you'd like...

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#144776 - 05/19/05 09:07 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102

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#144777 - 05/19/05 09:13 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Multiversed]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
I wasnt being sarcastic. I got stuff to put you in a pretzel too. Ive got some harimau and other ground fighting systems of silat that I do where you can have both legs tied up while cranking their chin towards you or elbowing them in the back of the head. There is a position from a front takedown where the guy has his leg up in the air and you step around his hip and have it locked while you lean towards his face and punch away. ALso, ways to tie yourself up with your own shirt and walk away where you will not be able to get out unless someone helps you.

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