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#144758 - 05/16/05 02:43 PM Grappling methods in Karate
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Since most the people on this karate forum are training in the more serious side of karate. I am curious to know about your grappling methods and your chief uses. the art I study, since it contains alot of throws, dont focus so much on grappling methods other then stand up locking and trapping and then only as throwing setups usually. Its ground work is a similier to a highly simplified version of judo, and is is mostly choking methods the ground work has maybe 5 to 10 locks for the limbs that are highly adaptable.

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#144759 - 05/16/05 03:17 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
I think there are proabably a few styles that have some grappling. However, karate, in my opinion has always been mostly a striking system, unless it is a hybrid style.

The grappling that I have learned has been introduced by karateka with Judo and BJJ experience. I have personally sought out BJJ experience to compliment what I have learned for standup.

As far as pure karate doing a lot of grappling...I think this generally outside its core technical background.

-B

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#144760 - 05/16/05 03:51 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
We train three distances within the "mandatory" stuff; punch-kick, clinch and groundwork, it's basically up to the individual which of them, if any, they like to emphasise more.

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#144761 - 05/16/05 04:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: nenipp]
JohnL Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 03/24/03
Posts: 4309
Loc: NY, NY, USA
A number of karate styles claim to have grappling techniques in them.

The problem I have though is that invariably, when karateka try and explain or do them, they're all pretty poor at them.

If you want to do some grappling, head into a BJJ or Judo school. They're really good at it. You may then find that what you're being taught is sometimes in your kata. Great. But go to the guys who do it regularly to learn.
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#144762 - 05/16/05 05:21 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: JohnL]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Hmmm, wouldnt it make sense that throwing and grappling would be a regular part of karate if it was in kata. Karate jutsu uses the same basic throws that judo does. In the classes I took karate was more of a close range striking/standup grappling/throwing system with very few ground methods as emphasis is staying on your feet. All the ground methods are techs done in the process of getting up. Along with the basic karate blocking and striking methods judo throws were taught, for example the techs taught at go kyu level were: shoulder throw, hip throw, inner and outter reap and yoridama. They were also drilled heavily and used often in sparring.There isnt many more taught at higher ranks but they all work. I never thought of karate as just a striking art, because if it couldnt just be striking if it was for self'defense. Also even though the throwing methods are the same, they are set up through normal karate striking methods mainly. Some of the throws were set up by palmheels to the chin to snap the head back.

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#144763 - 05/16/05 05:43 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
AgentT,

I agree with you as far as the throws. The style of karate I practice has throws in it...some not standard to judo type throws.

But the question is still one of grappling. And my experience would suggest that grappling in most styles of karate, if there, is not emphasized. Throws yes. Not ne-waza. I could certainly be wrong about your style, but suppose it would have to have a jujitsu background...and not karate.

Warmest regards,

-B

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#144764 - 05/16/05 05:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Gino Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 410
Loc: New York State
I've been training in Kobayashi Shorin-ryu for some time now. While there are plenty of bunkai to learn and explore, We thought they were all from a standing position. Like locks, arm bars, traps, etc. Then, to supplement our karate training, some of us have also been studying Two-Circle Ju Jitsu. We can now see where some of the standing tuite techniques, taken directly from kata, can be applied to ground-fighting. Just starting to learn about this stuff, very cool.
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#144765 - 05/16/05 06:01 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: butterfly]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
It does have methods similier to jj for groundwork and jj was taught as part of the karate class. I was refering more to stand up grappling/locking methods not so much ground work. Karate would have to be effective at ground range to be a self-defense method. The ground methods in the karate I trained in were very simple but highly effective. One such method is if a attacker takes you down and he's still standing, scissoring his legs to drop him. I know that probably dont fit most peoples definition of grappling. Another would be grabbing the knee and ankle and twisting, in the process of recovering your footing or hooking one foot behind the lower leg and using your other one to lock or dislocate the knee with a kick. Theres another highly effective one but I cant really explain it. All the methods are done in the process of getting up and most involve locking or twisting the knees.

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#144766 - 05/16/05 09:50 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: AgenT]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Just think about one aspect of grappling, the arm bar.

Within Isshinryu's eight empty hand kata, I've documented over 60 potential arm bars, and as far as I define it if they stick their arm out and you can stick their face in the ground, that's a form of grappling.

The difference is whether one takes the time to develop the skill to use was is obviously there. If you can take what they stick out and use it, then it's there. If you can't do it then it isn't.

There are several other things present within the kata too, but not tonight.
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#144767 - 05/16/05 10:37 PM Re: Grappling methods in Karate [Re: Victor Smith]
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Hi AgentT,

From my study of Classical Kara-te during the past 8+ years I have understood the following regarding tuidi jitsu (grappling):

Kara-te is a percussive art at it's core. Therefore all nage waza, ne waza, kansetsu waza... etc must be done after the opponent is softened by deliberate and dibilitating strikes to soften the opponent up resulting in less resistance when actually applying the techniques.

Having this in mind Classical Kara-te does have ground grappling in it. However it was, is, and will never be as advanced as Judo or BJJ. Main reason is because a Classical Pracitioner is using ground grappling to gain positional dominance to continue to strike. However if an arm or a neck presents its self... the practitioner will take it with a BASIC yet effective break or choke (blood or wind). However if you wish to really work on your ground... take JohnL's advice and seek instruction from Judo or BJJ.

Kind regards,

Raul
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