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#143749 - 06/12/05 06:54 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: Chen Zen]
trevek Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 3337
Loc: Poland
I didn't know about TKD but Ali was great friends with George Dillman, who actually bought Ali's old training camp. I thought he gave him a Black Belt. Mind you, Dillman once said Ali didn't learn karate system while he was competing in case he threw a kick in the ring.
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#143750 - 06/23/05 02:39 PM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: Chen Zen]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
chen, man your right i was watching a ali fight the other night and he reminded me alot of bruce. as for being a jkd fighter i would say yes he was. i don't think he had any training from bruce or anything like that but i would consider him a jkd fighter. yeah man he moved like poetry in motion. peace

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#143751 - 06/25/05 11:14 PM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: etaks86]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I just got a new set of Ali fights on DVD. Cant wait to watch em.
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#143752 - 06/25/05 11:51 PM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: Chen Zen]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
The only issue i have with Bruce Lee isn't actually with him; it's with many of his fans. He was a good martial artist and teacher, he also had a lot of good theories but unfortunately many don't know that many of his theories and quotes weren't exclusively his own. Bruce learned and taught to many people and many of the theories he had were a culmination of him and the vast majority of people he trained with but not exclusively his as many would believe. Too many people put him on a pedestal based on his movies and the "stories" they have heard. Bruce was good but FAR from being the unstoppable force so many paint him to be. For those who have seen live footage of him sparring know what i mean. I'm not talking about his demonstration footage either. He was far from dominating anyone with experience in his day or today. Unfortunately the myth and legend out weigh the facts these days. When you hear people who knew him talk about him today you don't hear them talk about how impossible he was to beat, they talk about how he was ahead of his time in his training and the great lengths he went through in his physical training. He had a very good understanding of the mechanics of fighting and power generation, that is obvious in his writings and it shows. His one inch punch that is so famous is nothing new though, its mechanics are evident in many Chinese systems. Unfortunately nothing can be proven today about Bruce due to the fact that there was little footage showing his skill other than demo footage, and we all know how demos can go.

With that being said there is also nothing to say Bruce wasn't what everyone makes him out to be. He could very well have been the best ever. My point is there is no actual proof that can ever lay things to rest. One thing Bruce was and still is today is an excellent example of how the martial arts should be practiced, regardless of what style you study. There are so many studying good valid systems but only practice while in the dojo and never look at any practical application of their art. Even some so called masters are a pathetic sign of what the martial arts have become (in general).

Personally i think Ali would have taken him. While Bruce was capable of generating a lot of power for his size so was Ali. Ali was also more apt to be able to absorb the force given. Ali was an outstanding tactician and i don't think anyone can argue with his speed. Given that i think after a short feeling out session Ali would have taken Bruce out.
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#143753 - 06/26/05 12:06 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: laf7773]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
You make an interesting argument. One thing that cannot be ignored though was Bruces reliance on the kick. Surely against a boxer, he would begin the fight this way and attempt to keep it that way. He would have to keep the range and the best way to do that would be attack the legs. Bruce new it. Whether it was exclusively his own doesnt matter, he still knew it. The question then becomes, could he take out Ali's legs before Ali got the rush and dominated on the inside?
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#143754 - 06/26/05 01:08 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: Chen Zen]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I think Ali would have capitalized on his reliance on kicks. Ali was fast enough on his feet to stay out of range but still close the gap fast enough to do the damage needed. Of the footage i've seen Bruce in i have yet to see him against someone with Ali's speed and understanding of timing and distance. Ali knew how to read body language and had very good timing which made him very good at jamming people up. I think he would have been able to read Bruce's intentions and closed enough to make his kicks less effective and subsequently putting himself at a huge advantage. There is no way Bruce could have with stood Ali's power while recovering from a kick.

Then you also have to wonder if Bruce would have known that as well and tried to stick with more evasive tactics. There is always the fact that not only is Ali very fast, powerful, accurate and extremely skilled he's also 6'3" with an 84" reach. Bruce was only 5'7". Ali would have been able to stay just on the edge of Bruce’s kicks while still being able to reach him, kind of like big brother/little brother.
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#143755 - 06/26/05 10:24 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: laf7773]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
*Quietly laughing at the irony of 2 moderators having a "who would win, Bruce Lee vs..." discussion*

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#143756 - 06/26/05 01:56 PM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: MattJ]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
Yeah i thought about that myself. At least it wasn't 3 pages of "Bruce would kick his but because he's the baddest".. "no he's not".."yes he is"..."nuh uh, your stupid"..."@#$% you punk".
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#143757 - 06/27/05 01:09 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: laf7773]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Yeah, it definately could have been worse. At least let it be an example of how this type of discussion should go.

Ok, back to the discussion, you must remember that Bruce had an invaluable sparring partner and student in Abdul Jabbar. He had some experience with a larger opponent with dominating reach. Now Karreem was no Ali, but the strategy would spill over some. Also what of his other students, who had martial arts training and a good understanding of timing and good speed such as Inosanto or Norris? He also sparred with Jhoon Rhee, who would have to have amazing timing to make traditional TKD effective, IMO. The only real disadvantage I see for Bruce is the body size and Ali's ability to dominate the inside. Not that we will ever know for sure but its a fun discussion anways.
_________________________
"When I let Go of who I am, I become who I might be."
Lao Tzu

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#143758 - 06/27/05 01:18 AM Re: Muhammad Ali...JKD fighter? [Re: Chen Zen]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
There is also the fact that Ali had a jaw of stone. Bruce would have to work much harder not only for a connection but enough of them to see results. Bruce's best bet in my opinion would be to go after his limbs and make it painful for Ali to maneuver or punch. Try to sap some of Ali's speed and agility from him. But if Ali got inside and got a rhythm on him i think Bruce would have been done for.
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