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#143055 - 06/23/05 04:41 PM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: butterfly]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I totally agree, boxing weakness is fist formation and delievery points of strike out of gloves.

Its strength is its concern is almost totally about fighting, though its in the ring, its full out and every move is used to get you in or out of position to give or evade a strike. Its conditioning is also a major factor.

I also found that when sparring a Boxer his most prize possesions is his legs. He will tell you in a minute hey we have to quit, if you damage my wheels I'm done for. They use their foot work to move in and out of range, seemly pride those more then blocking with their arms. Sorta like White Cane boxing which uses its foot work as a defense and offense. Though almost totally different, in complexity.

As I mentally compare the two boxing I must add that Western boxing strength is its truth and simplicity.

Another weakness is that it only cover 2 ranges and offense and defense is only concerned about above the waist contact.

I consider boxing a Combat Sport. Too many rules to be a Martial art.


Edited by Neko456 (06/23/05 04:46 PM)
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#143056 - 06/24/05 06:13 PM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: Neko456]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
MAGr-

I now see the point you were making.

-John

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#143057 - 06/26/05 02:16 AM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: JKogas]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
from what i know of boxing, it is one of the best fighting styles to learn how to fight practically quickly. But being a sport, it has many obvious weaknesses such as no strikes to below the waist, exaggerated movements (wide swings), no grappling, limited selection of hand techs, and boxers aren't taught to strike vital points or to protect their lower body (i.e. groin). Also, cuz boxers tape their wrists, many boxers (as well as MAs!!!) don't know how to align their wrists and hold their fists properly. Like any other combat sport (TKD, Judo, etc.) the techs and strategies would have to be modified for an SD situation. One good advantage boxers have is their godawful toughness.

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#143058 - 06/26/05 09:47 AM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote:

Quote:

from what i know of boxing, it is one of the best fighting styles to learn how to fight practically quickly. But being a sport, it has many obvious weaknesses such as no strikes to below the waist, exaggerated movements (wide swings), no grappling, limited selection of hand techs, and boxers aren't taught to strike vital points or to protect their lower body (i.e. groin).




You've never seen a boxer hit below the belt? Never? If you have, do you think that such instances were "always" accidental? You're not that naive I'm presuming though.

Boxing, the art, is different than boxing, the sport. There is such a thing as "dirty boxing". That's being practiced TODAY. Headbutting, arm cranks (ever see Tyson do that - in the ring, mind you?), stepping on the feet. The list goes on. Its still boxing! IT's illegal as hell in the ring, but it's still boxing. Give boxing (the delivery system), the credit it deserves. What matters is how the INDIVUAL performs it - not the guys in the ring (although I'm betting they could probably street fight pretty well if they needed too. Tyson's had no problems doing so).

Quote:

Also, cuz boxers tape their wrists, many boxers (as well as MAs!!!) don't know how to align their wrists and hold their fists properly. Like any other combat sport (TKD, Judo, etc.) the techs and strategies would have to be modified for an SD situation. One good advantage boxers have is their godawful toughness.




So don't tape your wrists. It's that simple. We don't. Sure it changes the game, but the underlying delivery system is STILL boxing. That doesn't change.

-John

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#143059 - 06/26/05 10:36 AM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: JKogas]
ta_kuan_dao Offline
Member

Registered: 06/13/05
Posts: 58
Loc: Memphis, TN
with all that, it could hardly be thought of boxing anymore. It's more like boxing except no rules.lol. I know that boxers do use illegal moves in the ring and that does [censored] me off somewhat. When u play a sport, u should expect to play by the rules. Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.

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#143060 - 06/26/05 11:40 AM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
ta_kuan,

I don't really think you get it. Boxing is boxing and contains a host of movements and some of the hardest punches...and deliveries of punches, that I know of.

By its very nature of continually measuring one opponent against another using (generally) the same skill set. It is one of the most comprehensive ways of learning how to enter into puching range and move out of it.

The key isn't just in the footwork and the punching techniques, it is in the training model. And the use of that training model to improve the fighter.

Give me a good amatuer boxer over most BB MAs (not all by the way ) and I will tell you where I'd put my money in a fight.

And this is coming from a karate guy!

-B

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#143061 - 06/26/05 12:08 PM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
ta_kuan_dao wrote:

Quote:

with all that, it could hardly be thought of boxing anymore. It's more like boxing except no rules.lol.




And that is precisely my point. Yet, the delivery system is STILL based on the core model of BOXING. The structure, movement, footwork, delivery of shots, defense of shots, all come fom the delivery system of boxing. What you're doing is confusing the ring sport of boxing with the underlying delivery system which can and IS done for self defense and other competitive uses (MMA). That was the whole crux of my argument to begin with.

Quote:


I know that boxers do use illegal moves in the ring and that does [censored] me off somewhat. When u play a sport, u should expect to play by the rules.




I agree, but we're not talking about the sport of boxing here. We're talking about boxing and self defense.

Quote:


Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.




What you mean to say is, they aren't part of the RING SPORT. Again, you're confusing the competitive side of boxing and the underlying delivery system. Try to understand the difference between the two.


Cheers!


-John

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#143062 - 06/26/05 02:03 PM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: ta_kuan_dao]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by ta_kuan_do -

Quote:

Most of those dirty boxing techs u talked about are actually just mostly moves picked off from the streets, thought up, or from other fighting arts. They're not really part of boxing.




I'm afraid that is not true. If you look at some of the old English boxing manuscripts from the 1800's, they list headbutting and footstomps (for 2) in the repetoire.

So, many of the "dirty" techniques DID exist in boxing to begin with, and were only removed in modern times to make boxing more commercial. JKogas and Butterfly are correct in saying that the delivery system of boxing has not been altered in the transition from SD to sport.

I have personally found boxing footwork and upper body movement to be superior to anything else I have seen, and have modified my (karate based) style accordingly.
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#143063 - 06/27/05 11:28 AM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: butterfly]
nlcounty89 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 5
Everyone has had some interesting things to say here. I wanted to mention two things: First, I would state that boxers, on average, seem to be in much, much better condition than your average combat sport, martial arts practioner. That is to say, if you find any amateur boxer, or even a boxing workout enthusiast, chances are they will be light years ahead of most other combat sport practioners in terms of conditioning. Boxing focuses so much on anaerobic conditioning, boxers are usualy in superb shape. This interval training is where they beat-out most other combat sports, etc. Let's face it, you can walk into a martial arts class and find people of all shapes and sizes, some of whom look like they can't even run a mile. The second thing I wanted to mention is footwork. Boxing focuses so much on footwork, boxers have a fluidity about their movement in the ring. I don't always see this in Tae Kwon do etc.

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#143064 - 06/27/05 12:36 PM Re: Boxing techniques [Re: butterfly]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I disagree a boxer in a boxing ring maybe, but a boxer in a street fight or in free range fight. I think not.

Amature boxers at their range can be awesome, but in a dirty street fight they fight too clean.

Give me a dirty street fighter with Martial arts experince anyday. Fights over before he knows it. Or it not over when he thinks it should be!!

Now a boxer thats a dirty street fighter is really tough, also.
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