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#142856 - 05/11/05 08:50 PM Generation 2 Black Prince tested
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
I have received my Genration 2 sword replacement and have been testing it for about a week. I updated my website if anyone is interested in the stress testing of swords.
Generation 2 replaced the Irish sword for the Black Prince and told me it will be a lot tougher because it has a peened one pommel. You may see my review at:


Generation 2 also has a Katan that I am considering purchasing and testing.


Edited by laf7773 (09/19/05 02:26 PM)
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#142857 - 05/11/05 09:15 PM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: tsafa]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Are you cross posting your reviews at Swordforum? I suspect you will reach a much wider audience there.
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#142858 - 05/11/05 11:28 PM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: Charles Mahan]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Do you mean Sword Forum International? That site is run and operated by sword manufactures. Angus Trim is the supper moderator and also a sword fabricator. The last thing they want is anyone actualy testing their products. They just want you to hang your sword on the wall and maybe cut water bottles. I suspect they would get a lot of angry custumers who paid $700 to $1500 for swords, sending them back broken and then learn some $200 swords hold up better. They quietly close any threads involving testing after a few posts.

So I post here because this forum does not seem to be run by people trying to make easy money.
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#142859 - 05/11/05 11:54 PM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: tsafa]
Charles Mahan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 2502
Loc: Denton, Tx, USA
Umm... I've been on that forum for quite awhile. While they do tend to shut down threads that get out of hand, they have never shut one down purely for content. It's actually one of the least biased forums around. There is a GREAT DEAL of sword reviews on that site as anyone bothering to use the Search function can easily discover.

I take it you had some kind of trouble there?
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Iaido - Breaking down bad habits, and building new ones.

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#142860 - 05/12/05 10:54 AM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: Charles Mahan]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Not any trouble, just a short courtious debate with some sword makers about how strong a sword should be. You can search "sword test" on that forum and find the thread somewhere. I still post their, but on this one issue of sword toughness they all gang up on me. its kind of funny to see how defensive they get. At some point I gave them a link to a site on "traditional Japanese sword testing on helmets" and that kind of left them with their foot in their mouth. I think it really bothered them that most of the $200 swords I own have not broken after heavy use. They use to all insist that all $200 production swords are wallhanders and will break. They where isisting on this for moths before the tire tests I did. Now they have shifted focus on tho how much beter ballaced their swords are (that may be true, I did not focus on issue). SFI is a very good site with very good information but they don't like competition very much.
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#142861 - 05/12/05 10:58 AM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: tsafa]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA
tsafa

I am starting to see exactly why you feel the folks over at swordforum were less than receptive to you.

Any number of folks here have already told you that your "testing" methods don't tell you much at all--tires are simply NOT giving you any trustable reading.

Rather than listen, you got argumenitive, and now your posting supposed "performance" results when folks:

A-Don't consider the method your using to give an accurate result.

B-Some folks have NO CLUE as to what your "testing" consists of--which is kinda wrong.


Edited by cxt (05/12/05 10:59 AM)
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#142862 - 05/12/05 09:15 PM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: cxt]
SimonM Offline
Member

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 139
Loc: Canada
Tsafa: From what I saw of your methodology there are some things you are doing right and a few significant errors in methodology. I am not a manufacturer of swords nor do I have an interest in any particular company (though I am fond of CAS Iberia/Hanwei swords because I have gotten good blades from them before). I have done a course in experiment design though and I may be able to help.

First: What your experiment tests is only the ability of the sword to resist metal fatigue. The ability of a sword to resist metal fatigue is not the only - or even the most important - aspect of sword quality. Balance and ability to hold a sharp edge are both at least as important. People at the other forum may be attempting to tell you that.

Second: there is a glaring flaw in your metal fatigue methodology; no uniformity of method. You say that most strokes were "full force". Howerver there is no definition for full force, how many pounds of pressure is full force? Also there is, by your own admission, variation in the force of the strokes. In addition you say that you use a variety of different strokes, chops from varying angles, stabs, flat strikes but you have no systemic way doccumented of doing this. Finally your blades are different shapes and sizes, if you try to stab a narrow, combat steel, rapier through a tire it won't hold up as well as a big renaissance sword, it wasn't designed to stab anything harder than human flesh.

If you want to establish a good research methodology for determining the relative quality of various forges based on a criterion of metal fatigue resistance what you should do is this:

Acquire several samples from each forge. I mean more than one of each sword type and try to get representatives from every sword in the line. Categorize swords by size, shape and purpose into narrow categories but endeavoring to have a good cross section of forges in each category. Use a device that will deliver a uniform strike with a uniform force to a target of uniform hardness. Basically a simple robot. For differing strikes use different swords IE: if you use a sword for chopping and it survives 5000 chops don't then take it off and use it for stabbing, get a sword of the same make and design and use it for stabbing instead, this avoids the introduction of some confounding variables. Test each sword until it breaks; as this could take a very long time this is another reason to use a machine for testing rather than your own arms. Even after this is complete all you can say is which forges make more durable swords, not "better" ones. At a cost of $150-$1500 per sword you are looking at an experiment which will probably cost you several tens of thousands of dollars when all is said and done. And you will have a lot of broken swords.
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#142863 - 05/13/05 01:00 AM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: SimonM]
tsafa Offline
Member

Registered: 04/27/05
Posts: 144
Hi Simone,
You have indeed pointed out some inconsitances and short comming that I am aware of. I am most concerned about a sword like that Valiant Armory War Sword that broke in 20 blows. I want to identify any swords like that and remove them from my armory. That is the kind of sword that would get you killed in battle. If I was fighting an unarmored peasent, nodoubt I could kill him with that sword, because the sword had a sharp enough edge and was stong enough to break bone. If I was to face an armored kight, the sword would have broken against his shield or any plate he was wearing and he would have quickly killed me after that. There are many other important aspects to a good sword, but if it breaks in 20 blows it is useless. The other sword that broke, the manufacturer has admitted that the design is somewhat inferior and that design is being phased out. The manufacture replaced it for me with one of the upgraded designs.

This method is not desingned to identify good swords. It is designed to identify really bad ones. Any sword that breaks in 20 blows regardless of how well ballaced it is or sharp is not battle worthy.
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#142864 - 05/16/05 08:56 PM Re: Generation 2 Black Prince tested [Re: tsafa]
Benjamin1986 Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 611
Loc: Republic of Texas
I agree with Simon, Tsafa, the data you gained from this is of very low quality. The only thing you can really determine from it is that the war-sword tang is of poor construction. However, to excel in your test, an iron bar will perform better than any blade. Please note, I believe that all of those blades were underhardened, resulting in better performance in your test, but lower overall quality.

As for your "this is designed to smash through armor" comments, no. That is for a mace, maul, axe, or medieval estoc (a heavy sword designed for clubing armor and then stabbing weak spots). I read the thread on swordforum, and you got more supporters than you waranted and fewer "you are an idiot" posts than you deserved.

First off, if you want to do a stress test, do it the right, scientific way. Read this clearly, destruction testing is useful if done well and useless when done poorly. You have proven only one thing in your long test, that the Valient armory blade that you had broke easily. Nothing else. You cannot even say that the Valient line is bad, merely that you had a blade with a breakable tang.
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