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#142676 - 10/28/05 11:46 AM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
RobNus Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/05
Posts: 76
Loc: Dublin, Ireland
whoa am i tired after reading all of that....

i'd agree with UofM Shorin Ryu on this matter. being no expert on ninja at all, i basically went by what you guys said, and checked all the links ye provided. it seems ninja, like jedi in a way, do not exist. however, unlike jedi, they DEFINATELY did at some point.

really dont like the term "grandmaster" either. it sounds very self-honorary. Hanshi or something of the like has a much better ring to it...although hanshi may not fit to ninpou/ninjutsu.
_________________________
Practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#142677 - 11/04/05 05:32 PM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590

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#142678 - 11/04/05 09:47 PM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: paradoxbox]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
Quote:

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31603





I don't understand the point of this....

Quote:

So, donít dismiss everything in our art as being antiquated, because you never know when you may have to call of some skills..




Is this the point?
If so then I'm still sticking to my arguement.
Roman legion skills and techniques are still in practice today, doesn't mean that Roman legionaries exist though...

We still use Greek and Roman building techniques, but they themselves are long gone.

Explain please


P.S. I like what heretic888 wrote here:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31551


Quote:

[Quote]:
Originally Posted by G Arthur
Here we go again. All I tried to do was answer the guys question. Yes history buffs we all know its much more complicated than that, and being history its not always fact.






Gary, that is why it is important to separate fact from opinion --- particularly in regards to a subject as convoluted as ninjutsu history.

The problem here is that you're making just-so statements about history, yet refuse to cite the sources of your information. Furthermore, when questioned on this, you make use of appeals to emotion and the intellectual equivalent of, "why's everybody always pickin' on me?!".

If you're not going to cite the references and sources for your historical information, then all we're left with is baseless speculation. Opinion or not, you can't expect anyone to take such claims with any modicum of seriousness.


[Quote]:
Originally Posted by G Arthur
I have put my opinions on other posts, in this and other forums. This is my personel opinion. Lets leave it there.






I'm afraid I'm gonna have to call you on this, Gary.

Where exactly have you put out your definition of ninja and ninjutsu? In the last thread like this, I directly asked you your definitions of these terms but all you did was back-step and lob a series of disorganized quotations from Hatsumi and Tanemura (often taken out of context), making vague allusions to what you believed their definitions were .

However, nowhere have I seen you give a clear-cut explanation as to what you mean when you refer to a historical personage as a 'ninja'. As such, your statements about these individuals has no clearly discernible context in mind and will mean very little to those interested in their history.

Laterz.
__________________
Trent Whilden







That bolded text: Sounds like someone I know....

Guess that link kinda backfired on you...hehe!
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#142679 - 11/04/05 09:59 PM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
I'm gonna add another nice post I'd like you to read:
http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31551&page=2&pp=15


Quote:

By GArthur

This may be of help. I originally started it to get peoples opinions of what Ninjutsu was all about. As one can see when reading it there are no straight forward answers.

Go to search, put in gyokko ryu and scroll down to "What was ninjutsu" I tried putting a link here but could not do it.

As one can see there are many opinions and answering Vic 20s question is not easy. The problem with history is that often there are no definitive answers. Sure there is evidence, but then its all based on how good that evidence is.

The problem with trying to explain the history of ninjutsu is that we rely on secondary or tertiary sources. In other words our sources come from some one else who believe something based on what they have heard.

For example Hatsumi Sensei says this.

In this regard we do not have tangible evidence like for example the history of Egypt, with all there many papyrus, painted walls, mummies, Roman sources etc. And there of course is much argument even in this field.

The problem then when studying the history of the ninja, is that in essence we are studying something that is almost absent from the historical and material record. There is no archaeology, and good historical sources are scarce.

Sure we have a few manuscripts (Shoninki, Ninpiden etc), and the ninja are recorded in Japanese history, but in many occasions we do not know how accurate these sources are, as they were written by people that were either/or
a) Not from a ninja background.
b) Enemies of the ninja so had a political agenda.

Some people have attempted to use the available sources to get a history of the ninja i.e. Stephen Turnbull, but again many disagree with his view.

So my belief is that much of this will be down to a point of view. Even if you present me with a written source, I may disregard that source as not very factiual (good evidence) based on my opinion.

In reality much of our views about ninjutsu today are based on the views of a few individuals, and therefore much of what filters down to us and finds its way on the web is based on other peoples views alone, and even these people have political agendas.

Therefore your view of the ninja may be different to mine. But none of us can prove absolutely whether we are right or not. The truth is that in reality we may all be wrong.

Gary Arthur
www.toshindo.co.uk





Some more food for thought...

There are other posts I'd like to quote, but it's easier if you just read through that entire thread on the E-budo site rather than me wasting space on this forum.

But I'll leave you with one more from heretic888:

Quote:


As such, this leaves the term "ninja" all but meaningless as a label, since it can be applied to such a wide variety of personalities, social classes, and occupational roles. Instead, I would argue that the term can only be applied to specific groups beginning around the mid-15th century onward (such as with the famous Iga-shu). Otherwise, you're left with a label that is so broad and generic that you can't really say anything about the shinobi as a class of people (which was what the original post asked for).





Have fun!!!


If there are any other sites you have, post em up and I'll be glad to refute them. In the meantime....

Ninja do not exist.
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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#142680 - 11/04/05 11:37 PM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: UofM Shorin Ryu]
paradoxbox Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 590
It's a nice internet post but the word ninja was not used during the 15th or 16th century and I've never found any evidence that proves it was used only for agents of the 15th / 16th century.

Lack of knowledge of Japanese language causes problems here. I've totally lost interest in debating in this thread about whether or not ninja exist anymore, but I'd suggest that you actually train in ninjutsu and learn Japanese before arguing about it, rather than educating yourself on the internet from English only forums.

The posts of some (all) of the people you've quoted are well known to be on extremely shaky ground in the past. Not that their arguments don't hold merit, but I would advise you to be very careful about who and what you start quoting with certain people. You could just listen to the grandmasters of the traditions and then there wouldn't be a problem. But I guess it's easier to quote random people on a forum to prove your point, sokeships be damned.

By the way, I posted the hensojutsu thread because it's a perfect example of my point. Hensojutsu is ninjutsu. There were ninja who specialized specifically in hensojutsu, nothing else. Considering the methods he's used are actual methods of shichihode, I'd say with confidence he's a ninja. Probably he wouldn't like the title, as in modern terms it sounds kind of goofy to most people, thanks to hollywood, but that's just the reality of it.

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#142681 - 11/05/05 02:10 AM Re: "Ninja" swords [Re: paradoxbox]
UofM Shorin Ryu Offline
Resident Forum Breakdancer

Registered: 02/07/05
Posts: 981
I think it's ironic that everything else has been translated into english, but in order to learn about Ninja, I have to be proficient in Japanese....

Quote:

You could just listen to the grandmasters of the traditions and then there wouldn't be a problem. But I guess it's easier to quote random people on a forum to prove your point, sokeships be damned.





grandmasters are human, humans make mistakes. Am I supposed to believe everything someone says just because they have good credentials? That would be pretty unwise I would think....

You've given me all these "english only forum" pages, btw, so I can't really be blamed for using them in my arguements...since you use them in yours....

I suggest you actually be president before debating politics....that's basically what you are telling me, which is totally bogus.

Quote:

By the way, I posted the hensojutsu thread because it's a perfect example of my point. Hensojutsu is ninjutsu. There were ninja who specialized specifically in hensojutsu, nothing else. Considering the methods he's used are actual methods of shichihode, I'd say with confidence he's a ninja. Probably he wouldn't like the title, as in modern terms it sounds kind of goofy to most people, thanks to hollywood, but that's just the reality of it.




Quote:

Find one place where I have ever stated being a modern practicioner of the art means you are a ninja. I have not said anything like that. The grandmasters of the bujinkan and genbukan both state themselves that they are ninja. I did not say practicioners of the arts are all ninja.




So which is it? Does a modern practicioner make him a ninja, like you just stated?

It seems to me you are getting angry because I am not blindly believing what you want me to believe. I have asked for primary evidence several times, you keep directing me to Hatsumi or other people who were never there...

This is the main reason why I don't believe what you say.
I've provided 3 different perspectives on what a primary source is, you've ignored them all and given the Grandmasters and Tanemura as your sources. They are not primary, and they are not infallible, as you seem to think.

And why are these people shaky?
I would advise you to be careful on who you quote, since neither grandmaster, nor Tanemura were actually there, living and breathing with ninja in feudal Japan...

Mr GArthur on my previous post provides a quote from Hatsumi, so I'll fight fire with fire:

Quote:

For example Hatsumi Sensei says this.

In this regard we do not have tangible evidence like for example the history of Egypt, with all there many papyrus, painted walls, mummies, Roman sources etc. And there of course is much argument even in this field.

The problem then when studying the history of the ninja, is that in essence we are studying something that is almost absent from the historical and material record. There is no archaeology, and good historical sources are scarce.

Sure we have a few manuscripts (Shoninki, Ninpiden etc), and the ninja are recorded in Japanese history, but in many occasions we do not know how accurate these sources are, as they were written by people that were either/or
a) Not from a ninja background.
b) Enemies of the ninja so had a political agenda.





I like this A. because Hatsumi makes references to Rome, like I have done in the past
and B. questions the accuracy of his own sources.

You believe Hatsumi without a thought, Hatsumi himself questions the history of ninja....

Words have multiple meanings, they change over time. I see no reason to spend money and time learning japanese, when there is an easier solution.

I don't have to learn heiroglyphics, Latin, Greek, Italian, Spanish, or French to study those cultures, so why is Japanese so different? Lack of knowledge of these languages does not impede the study of any of these cultures, in any period of history, yet Japanese just happens to be special...

I guess I just don't understand why it is so hard to learn about ninja as opposed to everything else...but since you are the expert, I guess I just have to take your word for it....

In any case, you don't want to debate anymore, for whatever reason. I'm always up for a good debate, and it was fun while it lasted. Sorry to see your patience has worn thin, and your comments have deteriorated from good old debate to sly little attacks. So it's been fun! °Adios!
_________________________
Alea iacta est ~ Gauis Julius Caesar Ne quis nimis ~ Solon Nuts to cancer ~ Sanchin31

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