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#142518 - 02/24/08 07:17 AM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
bwhite55 Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/08
Posts: 59
Quote:

Quote:

i still really doubt it. the human body is an amazing thing, but i really don't believe its that amazing w/o help.

IMHO, most of the stuff about steroids IS overhyped, and banning steroids is the WORST and DUMBEST thing that has ever happened. most of the negativity is spread by pharmicists w/ hidden agendas and people who have lost friends and families to steroid abuse(my deepest apologies to anybody on here who might have lost anyone close to steroids, i mean no attack on you or that person, nor am I trying to lesson their death in any way, so please don't miss-understand). thats another tangent and topic completely so I won't even go there.




I think you have very little experience of people who use steriods to make that statement.
I have been around steroid users for some time.
They and the effects that come from them and what they lead to are bad. Full stop.

Eat correctly, sleep enough, train hard and nature will take care of the rest. It will take longer but there again training will last untill late on in a persons life.



Jude




i don't say that because i'm for steroid use, i'm very much against it, but if people are gonna use it, they will use it regardless of where it comes from. I'd much rather people be able to get them from a doctor then take a risk and get them from a dealer on the street. Fact is, when they became illegal, it created a black market and now people cannot be sure of the purity or if they are getting what people say they are. They are also getting them and creating crazy stacks without even knowing the side effects. My reasoning behind my statement is people's safety, NOT that i am pro-steroids, because i'm not pro-steroids. And I'm sure that the side effects would be minimal if a physician directs the user compared to some kid on the street, but that can't happen now. Just with any other drug, or anything else in high demand, if you ban it, it fuels its popularity and creates a black market.

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#142519 - 02/24/08 07:52 AM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: bwhite55]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Quote:



i don't say that because i'm for steroid use, i'm very much against it, but if people are gonna use it, they will use it regardless of where it comes from. I'd much rather people be able to get them from a doctor then take a risk and get them from a dealer on the street. Fact is, when they became illegal, it created a black market and now people cannot be sure of the purity or if they are getting what people say they are. They are also getting them and creating crazy stacks without even knowing the side effects. My reasoning behind my statement is people's safety, NOT that i am pro-steroids, because i'm not pro-steroids. And I'm sure that the side effects would be minimal if a physician directs the user compared to some kid on the street, but that can't happen now. Just with any other drug, or anything else in high demand, if you ban it, it fuels its popularity and creates a black market.




I think people would do what they want to do anyhow regardless of a doctors input. Smokers are a prime example.
Steriod users arent to rational. It isnt just the physical
side. The effect on the mental side is bad. If you associate with such people and they combine steriods with other uses such as cocaine ( they need cocaine or other such drugs while on steriods other wise they go nuts) and GHB( makes them get a deeper sleep amongst other things) then would be worth your while getting your awareness skills, fighting skills and fitness to as high as a level you can.


They pay the piper when they have to come off them for what
ever reason. They are weak as kittens.

Generalising.
People who used them years ago and still train get symptoms like heart attacks strokes and physical degeneration more than normal. They become bloated if they dont still train.

Forget steriod use anybody reading this. Doctors control or not. Pay the piper in the long run.

Jude

Top
#142520 - 02/24/08 08:52 AM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Quote:

The effect on the mental side is bad. If you associate with such people and they combine steriods with other uses such as cocaine ( they need cocaine or other such drugs while on steriods other wise they go nuts)




some bodybuilders have been known to develop stimulant addiction- cocaine, epehedrine, speed, pcp, nubain etc can be used as stimulants to increase aggression and energy output in a workout.
The idea that all who use steroids also use these other drugs, or that they are a requirement to counter act psychological changes invoked by steroid use is absolute CR4P!!!!!

Quote:

They pay the piper when they have to come off them for what
ever reason. They are weak as kittens.




CR4P!!!!

Quote:

Generalising.




aint you just. And not accurately either.

Quote:

People who used them years ago and still train get symptoms like heart attacks strokes and physical degeneration more than normal. They become bloated if they dont still train.




Seriously, where do you get this stuff from- '101 misconceptions you will want to spout in the Bar' maybe? that is a freakin popular book.

Prolonged and ongoing use of anabolic steroids has been proven to increase the risk of heart desease, as well as strain on the kidneys and liver. Big deal. We are all at increased risk of these things through modern lifestyle.
So if you are straight edge, taking no caffeine, eating only organicaly farmed produce, living an active balanced life involving moderate exercise and 6-9 hours sleep a night, then line up and poke the steroid takers with sticks.
If you drive to a desk job, enjoy beers with your friends, do a couple of workouts a week but enjoy a good pizza every week, THEN LINE UP WITH THE JUICERS AND GET POKED WITH THEM.

I have never taken 'roids, but I have been around them for years. They do not provide an 'easy option' when they are used properly. They make it so users have to train harder, they recover quicker, their eating must be regimented. 'Roid takers weigh risk against goal attainment- that is just what we all do every day. Providing they are educated about those risks, and accept them, then who are we to judge them?
A lot of negativity comes from envy. Ever noticed that there are certain celebrities that women dont mind men finding attractive, and others that they get their claws into? Natalie Portman and Sandra Bullock tend to be 'allowed'- they are not threatening to the girl in the street. If a guy likes them, then he likes 'normal' looking women- his standards are attainable.
As soon as a guy mentions Pamela Anderson or Carmen Electra the claws start slashing 'she's fake!' 'She's trashy' 'She is obvious' whatever. Thats because liking them means you want an ideal- a comic book figure with a sex-bomb attitude 24/7. 'Real' women cant live up to that, and they hate it.

This digression is geared towards the real point. Guys who bash awesome physiques or incredible strength do so out of jealousy. 'He got those arms out of a bottle' 'he is a cheat' 'roids are a cowards choice'. Get over it. You are not prepared to push your body to the point at which you run out of genetic potential. You are not in the situation of choosing to take things further at personal risk. You have not dedicated all your time, money and vomit-inducing effort to achieving the extra-ordinary. And you never will. So you sit back and take cheap shots at those who walk in different shoes.
Deal with it, and spend more time accepting what you can do with your body under the rules you have set yourself, than being bitter about not getting 21 inch arms on casseinated whey alone.
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#142521 - 02/24/08 09:38 AM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:



Seriously, where do you get this stuff from- '101 misconceptions you will want to spout in the Bar' maybe? that is a freakin popular book.

some bodybuilders have been known to develop stimulant addiction- cocaine, epehedrine, speed, pcp, nubain etc can be used as stimulants to increase aggression and energy output in a workout.
The idea that all who use steroids also use these other drugs, or that they are a requirement to counter act psychological changes invoked by steroid use is absolute CR4P!
!!!!




In your mind it might be CR4P!
I get the stuff as you call it from
observations, training with people who have taken them for years and people who ended up the way they are.
Can I ask where do you get your information from?
Do you agree with steriod/ drug use? Or have I miss-understood something. From my point of view/ observations steriod use leads to other drug use.

Quote:


Prolonged and ongoing use of anabolic steroids has been proven to increase the risk of heart desease, as well as strain on the kidneys and liver. Big deal.






Big deal? I suspect you havent had any dealings with the people who were effected then? Mental/ physical/ alcohol / other drug problems through steriod use?


Quote:


We are all at increased risk of these things through modern lifestyle.
So if you are straight edge, taking no caffeine, eating only organicaly farmed produce, living an active balanced life involving moderate exercise and 6-9 hours sleep a night, then line up and poke the steroid takers with sticks.
Quote:


Moderate exercise? Assumptions abound here. No poking of sticks. Stating what I see.
Can I ask if you are agreeing with steriod use?
Is that just steriods or other drugs?
Quote:


If you drive to a desk job, enjoy beers with your friends, do a couple of workouts a week but enjoy a good pizza every week, THEN LINE UP WITH THE JUICERS AND GET POKED WITH THEM.




Yep, unhealthy life style.

Quote:


I have never taken 'roids, but I have been around them for years. They do not provide an 'easy option' when they are used properly.





Must have been on minimum dosage then or were they realy steriods or something some one sold as steriods with no effect?. Easy to see a steriod user. skin, spots, sudden increase in muscle mass lost when they stop taking them.
A fast increase in strength from what they were.
Mental change. I will let you describe the mental change symptons if I may.
What would you say they were? Mental change while on steriods and mental change when not using them.
GHB is realy common amongst steriod users. What would you say the mental state is while using it and when not using it.
Ditto with cocaine?

Quote:


A lot of negativity comes from envy.




That might be but where does envy fit in to the fact what steriods do? Envy of what? Competition yes but envy? No.
Quote:


So you sit back and take cheap shots at those who walk in different shoes.





I didint take cheap shots at anybody. I stated what I see.
So basicaly are you saying steriod use is good?
If so why do people get banned when caught in sports?
Why have they been made illegal in certain countries?
Quote:


This digression is geared towards the real point. Guys who bash awesome physiques or incredible strength do so out of jealousy. 'He got those arms out of a bottle' 'he is a cheat' 'roids are a cowards choice'. Get over it.



Nothing to get over. If that is their goal then why not do it minus drugs?
Quote:


You are not prepared to push your body to the point at which you run out of genetic potential.




So the answer is who is using the most drugs? How do you know that isnt been done naturaly?
Quote:


You are not in the situation of choosing to take things further at personal risk. You have not dedicated all your time, money and vomit-inducing effort to achieving the extra-ordinary.




And the use of steriods justify this?
Quote:



And you never will. So you sit back and take cheap shots at those who walk in different shoes.
Deal with it, and spend more time accepting what you can do with your body under the rules you have set yourself, than being bitter about not getting 21 inch arms on casseinated whey alone.









Thanks for the advise but deal with what? The rules I have set myself is to improve on what I have. With out drugs of any description. Surely the people looking for the easy way out eg drug enhanced performance are the people who would display envy? Why use them? To lazy for the natural methods?
Be a bit like the pot users. Need drugs to relax.
I prefer to rely on my own endocrine system, thanks.


Quote:


than being bitter about not getting 21 inch arms on casseinated whey alone.




Why would I want 21 inch arms? What has being bitter got to do with the effects of steriods? I am quite happy with my arms how they are. Admittedly I would like increase in strength that I already have which I am working on but by natural methods. Not drug enhanced methods. "21 inch arms what for? My ego doesnt require them.
If that is their goal to be the strongest to surpass the levels etc then why not do it minus drugs?

No need for steroids. Eat good train good nature takes care of the rest. Steriod market is like most drugs markets. Money. Fools to play to the dealers maybe?

Can you give me (other than medical use) one good reason for the use of any drug?

I dont know of any?


Jude.


Edited by jude33 (02/24/08 10:17 AM)

Top
#142522 - 02/24/08 10:37 AM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
For anybody who chooses not to take an observational point of view from a weight trainer( eg me) on steriods here is a scientific point of view

http://www.drug-rehabs.com/steroid-abuse.htm
Scientific research also shows that aggression and other psychiatric side effects may result from abuse of anabolic steroids. Many users report feeling good about themselves while on anabolic steroids, but researchers report that extreme mood swings also can occur, including manic-like symptoms leading to violence. Depression often is seen when the drugs are stopped and may contribute to dependence on anabolic steroids. Researchers report also that users may suffer from paranoid jealousy, extreme irritability, delusions, and impaired judgment stemming from feelings of invincibility.1
Research also indicates that some users might turn to other drugs to alleviate some of the negative effects of anabolic steroids. For example, a study of 227 men admitted in 1999 to a private treatment center for dependence on heroin or other opioids found that 9.3 percent had abused anabolic steroids before trying any other illicit drug. Of these 9.3 percent, 86 percent first used opioids to counteract insomnia and irritability resulting from the anabolic steroids.2


Opoids

http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/article.asp?ContentID=heroin

Heroin is one of a group of drugs known as "opioids". Other opioids include opium, morphine, codeine, pethidine, oxycodone, buprenorphine and methadone.

Heroin and other opioids are depressants. Depressants do not necessarily make you feel depressed. Rather, they slow down the activity of the central nervous system and messages going to and from the brain and the body.

Cord I think you are miss informed on this subject. But we are all students of the martial arts and I think learning
applies to everybody?

me included.



Jude






Edited by jude33 (02/24/08 10:51 AM)

Top
#142523 - 02/24/08 01:08 PM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
TwizDead Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 28
At the end of the day, steroids aren't the mircle drug that people in this thread make them out to be.
You dont like take steroids, then suddenly turn into Ronnie Colemen overnight.
I know someone that trained with me and was on steriods, and he got less growth then me, because his nuitrition and training wasn't as regeimented as mine.
I aggree with Cord in the fact that as much as you can say that steriods damage organs within the body, how many of you drink alcohol....fizzy drinks..
Even crossing the road can be dangerous.

It's just down to theat person having a cost-benifit analysis. And if they think using steriods is for them, and they've made a rational choice, then who are we to argue?

Also jude33....
Next time you bring out a scientific study, try to get an objectional one?
Surely the main goal of a rehab is to advertise how bad a drug is, so that people think 'wow I need rehad'.

Top
#142524 - 02/24/08 01:25 PM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
Ok jude, first off, cut the bowing and 'we are all fellow MAists' routine. That only ever gets used by people in a passive-aggressive manner who try and appear open minded on a subject they are blatantly set in stone on.

That out of the way, here comes my answer(s)

Firstly, If i were pro steroid, I would take them. I do not, and have never done so.
I am however, pro personal choice, when the choice is based on full knowledge of both sides of a situation.

you first cited cocaine as a mental stabiliser for steroid use. Now it is opiods. Cocaine is a competely different drug, from genus through to effect, to any opioid. Which is it? Constant symptoms have constant cures.

A poll of 227 men does not a clinical truth make. In the larger field of medicine, 'roid rage' is not yet considered a proven condition, and nor will it be any time soon. You see, anabolic steroids (a group of drugs that encompasses many many types) were never designed for human use, and as such, NO RECOGNISED CLINICAL TRIALS EXIST IN REGARDS TO THEIR EFFECTS ON HUMANS. All evidence in regards to the psychological issues is, at best circumstancial, and at worst, anecdotal. Not scientific empirical fact.

Even if that study of 227 men were spot on, this in no way is a wide enough, nor thorough enough study to confirm or refute anabolic steroid links with anything at all, good or bad.

Where do I get my observations from in regards to anabolic steroids? Experience. I have trained with, helped train, and socialised with hundreds of competetive athletes, and thousands of hobbyist private individuals in the lifting community over a professional period of a decade, and a personal period of 19 years. I submitted a full CV and checkable references to Mr Caille before accepting the job of moderator in the strength and Nutrition fora, because, along with self defence, these are the areas of the site that advice/info given can have a real impact on peoples lives. Its something i take seriously.

In that spirit, I say again, that I do not advocate or recommend anabolic steroid use. No one with under 5 years of consistent training has even scratched their potential, and so its completely ridiculous to start enhancing performance that is not yet fully developed in the first place.

What i am advocating, is the removal of moral highground in regards to a personal choice made by many, if not all involved at the highest level of competition, where health is not an issue, and where performance is everything to those involved. These people sacrifice more, work harder, hurt more, and achieve more, than anyone who sits in judgement of them.
If their performance and accomplishments is at the expense of their health, then that is a personal choice.

Many people out there see Martial arts as dangerous and embodying nothing but negatives- glorification of violence, ego, the cultivation and focussing of aggression.
We who know better, can see this over simplified view as inherently wrong.
Ronnie Coleman's years in the gym, his spartan dedication to eating, his drive and motivation to succeed made that physique. The steroids are merely a secondary tool. Without the above, taking gear and sitting on the couch all day, he would have achieved nothing.

Another point to consider if your 'clinical' trial proved correct, is that it paints a persuasive argument for removing steroid control from recreational drug dealers, bringing it out from the underground, and looking at organising some real trials and support systems for users. Then they wouldnt be surrounded by cocaine and opioids would they?

*insert irritating emoticon of choice here*
_________________________
Don't let the door hit ya' where the good lord split ya'
http://cord.mybrute.com

Top
#142525 - 02/24/08 02:14 PM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: TwizDead]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

At the end of the day, steroids aren't the mircle drug that people in this thread make them out to be.
You dont like take steroids, then suddenly turn into Ronnie Colemen overnight.




No one said they did.
Quote:


I know someone that trained with me and was on steriods, and he got less growth then me, because his nuitrition and training wasn't as regeimented as mine.




That happens. I know that happens. But you can hide away the truth all you want.
Steriods in most cases leads to other drug use. In fact it also works the other way around. Drug users using steroids.
Your friend will be increasing the chances of physical mental illness.

Quote:


I aggree with Cord in the fact that as much as you can say that steriods damage organs within the body, how many of you drink alcohol....fizzy drinks..
Even crossing the road can be dangerous.




Alcohol yep agreed. Fizzy drinks???
Crossing the road has nothing to do with using drugs. That is called fate or chance. Taking drugs is a choice. A bad choice.
Quote:


It's just down to theat person having a cost-benifit analysis. And if they think using steriods is for them, and they've made a rational choice, then who are we to argue?




Because that would be like saying the same for cocaine.
There is a thing called laws in society. Either a person abides or they dont. If steroids were something such as a natural remedy then no reason to make them illegal?
But they are not. They cause problems. Illegal drug trade and a whole heap of other things.
Controlled drugs fall into this category. There illegal for a reason.
Quote:


Also jude33....
Next time you bring out a scientific study, try to get an objectional one?
Surely the main goal of a rehab is to advertise how bad a drug is, so that people think 'wow I need rehad'.




Shows exactly the amount of time you have spent around hard drug users. By the looks of it none. Your dreaming.

Quote:


'wow I need rehad'





Try this statement. A mother might make. My son/daughter needs rehab.
No she/ he doesnt they need a cemetery.

Keep dreaming.

Jude

Top
#142526 - 02/24/08 02:43 PM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: jude33]
TwizDead Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/07
Posts: 28
Quote:

Fizzy drinks???



Caffine is bad for liver and kidneys.

Quote:

Crossing the road has nothing to do with using drugs. That is called fate or chance. Taking drugs is a choice. A bad choice.



So who makes the choice for you crossing the road? the differance between our arguement, is that you are taking a moral highroad which is extremely subjective.


Quote:

There is a thing called laws in society. Either a person abides or they dont. If steroids were something such as a natural remedy then no reason to make them illegal?
But they are not. They cause problems. Illegal drug trade and a whole heap of other things.
Controlled drugs fall into this category. There illegal for a reason.




haha.
So laws are always right, and benifical to society as a whole?
40 years ago, being homosexual was illegal in alot of countries and seen as a mental afflication. So because that was the law, it was right?
Neither alcohol or Tobacco are illegal, yet scientific studies will show that the health and social effects of them substances are worse then ecstasy, which is class a in the U.K, and in the worst range of hard drugs in America. Surely this shows that laws aren't always there to help us, because surely alcohol would be illegal? Oh no...hang on, that would mean the government would lose alot of money through taxation.
As someone says, these drugs being illegal causes more problems then if they were regulated and legal.


Quote:

Shows exactly the amount of time you have spent around hard drug users. By the looks of it none. Your dreaming.



Haha.
Depends, what you class as hard, but I know lots of people who take Class A drugs regularly. Yes it will effect their health. However, it is their choice. They made it rationally. They are all educated, and either work good jobs or are in higher education (i.e university undergrad/postgrads). Still, I dont understand where that comment came from.
Drug rehab clinics are there to make money in most cases.
Surely they wouldnt make any money if they said that drugs were good?

At the end of the day, your entire arguement's are based on...They are illegal thus bad.
But then laws can be wrong, since they are made by people, and people can be wrong.

Top
#142527 - 02/24/08 02:47 PM Re: is ronnie coleman on steroids? [Re: Cord]
jude33 Offline
Veteran

Registered: 03/14/07
Posts: 1539
Quote:

Ok jude, first off, cut the bowing and 'we are all fellow MAists' routine. That only ever gets used by people in a passive-aggressive manner who try and appear open minded on a subject they are blatantly set in stone on.






Thanks for the advise but no thanks. Interesting about the statement of aggression part? Interesting but wrong.







Firstly, If i were pro steroid, I would take them. I do not, and have never done so.
I am however, pro personal choice, when the choice is based on full knowledge of both sides of a situation.






That would be like saying personal choice of using hard drugs. You live in a society. Steriods lead to problems.
Problems seen fit enough to make unlicenced sale of them illegal. For reasons.

Quote:


you first cited cocaine as a mental stabiliser for steroid use. Now it is opiods. Cocaine is a competely different drug, from genus through to effect, to any opioid. Which is it? Constant symptoms have constant cures.





The street price on cocaine was/ is rock bottom. Herion is the worst drug anybody can use. So unless they are realy stupid( and the they do exist) most I am aware of use cocaine.

Quote:



A poll of 227 men does not a clinical truth make. In the larger field of medicine, 'roid rage' is not yet considered a proven condition, and nor will it be any time soon. You see, anabolic steroids (a group of drugs that encompasses many many types) were never designed for human use, and as such, NO RECOGNISED CLINICAL TRIALS EXIST IN REGARDS TO THEIR EFFECTS ON HUMANS. All evidence in regards to the psychological issues is, at best circumstancial, and at worst, anecdotal. Not scientific empirical fact.




I see what I see. I dont realy need evidence to back up what I see. If it is available fine. Roid rage exists so does the other things connected with steriods. But I will look for data.
Quote:


Even if that study of 227 men were spot on, this in no way is a wide enough, nor thorough enough study to confirm or refute anabolic steroid links with anything at all, good or bad.





I shall look for some.
Quote:



Where do I get my observations from in regards to anabolic steroids? Experience. I have trained with, helped train, and socialised with hundreds of competetive athletes, and thousands of hobbyist private individuals in the lifting community over a professional period of a decade, and a personal period of 19 years. I submitted a full CV and checkable references to Mr Caille before accepting the job of moderator in the strength and Nutrition fora, because, along with self defence, these are the areas of the site that advice/info given can have a real impact on peoples lives. Its something i take seriously.

In that spirit, I say again, that I do not advocate or recommend anabolic steroid use. No one with under 5 years of consistent training has even scratched their potential, and so its completely ridiculous to start enhancing performance that is not yet fully developed in the first place.

What i am advocating, is the removal of moral highground in regards to a personal choice made by many, if not all involved at the highest level of competition, where health is not an issue, and where performance is everything to those involved. These people sacrifice more, work harder, hurt more, and achieve more, than anyone who sits in judgement of them.




Yeah? wrong. There are natural atheletes who work just as hard with out steriods.
Competition should be between human ability. Not who has the better roid use and given the side effects of roids they shouldnt be used.




If their performance and accomplishments is at the expense of their health, then that is a personal choice.






Personal choice is one thing. Using illegel drugs is another. The effects of a roid use on the public needs to be considered. One of the reasons certain states in America have taken the actions they have done.

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Many people out there see Martial arts as dangerous and embodying nothing but negatives- glorification of violence, ego, the cultivation and focussing of aggression.
We who know better, can see this over simplified view as inherently wrong.
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Ok






Ronnie Coleman's years in the gym, his spartan dedication to eating, his drive and motivation to succeed made that physique. The steroids are merely a secondary tool.






So why use them then. Think of it this way. If no one used roids and he did what he did he would be a the top of his chosen field?

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Without the above, taking gear and sitting on the couch all day, he would have achieved nothing.




Doesnt justify there use.
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Another point to consider if your 'clinical' trial proved correct, is that it paints a persuasive argument for removing steroid control from recreational drug dealers, bringing it out from the underground, and looking at organising some real trials and support systems for users. Then they wouldnt be surrounded by cocaine and opioids would they?





So why not just ban them totaly and let people be judged as a natural athelete? Why make them legal?

Roids are false and lead to problems. If no one used them then you would still be in work advising people.
So I cant see how that realy effects you.??

Jude

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