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#141294 - 05/20/05 12:17 PM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Ace]
RangerG Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 04/18/05
Posts: 1026
Loc: Chester County, Pennsylvania

all stylesare marketed,after all, people who teach astyle for a living do need to have enough students to make an income... i have seen many styles market themselves as the be all end all of MA, not just KM, so to put this in the KM forum and not the general MA forum isnt really practical is it?

This is a new and growing forum. As more KM members weigh in here, the base of information from both the U.S. and the IDF trained members will help in answering questions. This forum also keeps the KM threads out of the general MA forum so as not to clutter things up there or attract KM bashing to a small degree. I understand pride in ones form, but again..conflict avoided is always a good thing.
"If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough."

#141295 - 06/05/05 11:03 PM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: jaret345]
Subedei Offline

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
Although I do several other things I like to consider myself a Hopkido guy. As such I have no problem admitting the kind of instructing you find in most Krav Maga schools will create an effective fighter much faster than my own style of teaching Hapkido.

However, I'm pretty sure if I were asked to teach Hapkido to say, a group of soldiers that would be shipped off to war or peacekeeping or other such things in a matter of months I believe I'd teach it exactly like Krav Maga is taught. This is pretty easy to say considering Krav Maga and Hapkido seem almost identical to me.

In Hapkido we teach basic, direct hand, foot, knee, and elbow strikes. It has been my personal experience that these are the most reliaple, most valuable core of techniques that even the most advances student will use more than anything else. The benefits are obvious.

We teach every stance in Hapkido from the beginning, there's just no reason not to and they're a vital component of everything else you do.

We teach a collection of simple, direct takedowns that generally form the conceptual basis for more advanced takedowns. We usually refer to them as takedowns but I think most say "throws" as you aren't falling with them. This is immediately useful.

We teach breakfalling and rolling. Maybe you wont learn how to take a fall on concrete without any injury for a long, long time, but with only a month of training you'll be vastly less likely to suffer serious injury from such falls. Immediate benefits.

We teach a collection of techniques generally refered to as "self defense". These teach students how to quickly and efficiently escape from common attacks such as headlocks, wrist and arm grabs, chokes, shirt grabs and other such things. Introduces students to the science of joint locking and manipulation and is immediately useful in self defense situations.

We teach defense against common weapons such as knives, pistols, and clubs/batons. The vast majority of street encounters will likely involve weapons of some kind, and you will likely be unarmed when attacked, very valuable for self defense or anyone else that plans to encounter weapons anywhere, ever.

On the other hand...

We teach many kicks such as reverse hook kicks from a stationary backstance and low roundhouse sweeps that will certainly give you an edge in combat, but require a great degree of flexability, coordination, balance and tactical experience to use properly. You wont benefit from these for a long, long time.

We teach many hand strikes such as Mantis Fist, Ridgehand and Snake Fist that require a great degree of experience and hand conditioning to apply correctly. These are taught to advanced students for a reason. You probably wont use them in a fight for quite a while, even if you know them, and if you do you probably shouldn't.

We teach a lot of takedowns/throws that either require lots of finesse and very dynamic control of the opponent, exploit oppenings that you probably wont even see or create for a while, and are sometimes rather dangerious. Better to stick to the basics until you've got more experience.

We teach some acrobatics that could potentially be useful in a fight, but I personally believe are designed to make the student mobile and comfortable in any position they may find themselves in, rather than being a technique you intentional use to counter or evade something else.

We teach a lot of joint locking techniques that require an immense degree of precision to work properly. If done correctly, you can render a foe helpless and completely under you physical control. The problem is it'll be ages before you have the knowledge to make them work at all.

We teach pretty much all the pressure points on the human body. Requires precision and frankly aren't all that useful relative to other things you could be learning. They help out with control and locks and such, but they're more of a last resort in bad situations.

We teach forms. Now don't get me wrong, I think forms are an incredibly useful tool. They're something you can do anywhere, anytime. They teach footwork, coordination, tactical applications of your techniques, high level concepts in combat. They let you practice all the basics in a more dynamic, and frankly more interesting way as well as giving you an excellent library of if not all, the vast majority of your art's techniques. They also have meditative and other more abstract uses that I consider valuable. However, they are not, in my opinion, vital to training. You can become a good fighter never having done a single form. They're very time consuming and lets face it, how long before our students really start to see things in forms? Six Months? A year? That's not immediately useful and as such will only waste our very limited time.

We teach a lot of weapons that are certainly very fun windows into history, and teach a lot of principles that I've found valuable in unharmed combat. Unfortunately the majority of these weapons are no longer used anywhere in the world and even civilians who do not have access to combat knives and guns would find little benefit from the majority of them. I can see stick and knife fighting being useful in some situations, but not useful enough to teach.

Why would you include all of these latter things if you didn't expect them to be long term students, or knew they'd be going into dangerous situations in the immediate future? I know I wouldn't, and Krav Maga doesn't seem to either.

#141296 - 06/06/05 02:48 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Sanchin]
Equis Offline

Registered: 06/01/05
Posts: 101
Loc: in my pants.


krav maga has a few advantages in terms of time it takes to learn

1. it is extremly no nonsense - there are thngs that you teach beginers in other martial arts that are not actually used, but give a base for things that you will learn later. there is very little like this in krav maga. the moves you learn are all basic, simple and practical

2. krav maga training is all as real as possible. you don't have black belts who have never realy sparred, because in your first few lessons you will get pysical, and you will keep it up.

3. there is nothing fancy - it is a few basic moves, a few basic targets, no high kicks, no fancy joint work, etc. the idea is to teach people to take down a threat fast and simple.

4. there is nothing spiritual or mystical about krav maga - it is engineering, not art. you are tought an attitude about how to bring force into play, in order to end threats. you won't see anybody learning how to to a sword kata, but you will see people learning how to hit with a fire extinguisher.

I studied krav maga for 2 course, almost 20 years ago. one course was 2 weeks long, and the other was 6 weeks long, but wasn't just focused on krav maga. I still remember a hell of a lot that was tought me there, and when I spar, I use that more than the style that I study now.

All you learned was "beginners KM" you say there are only basics, thats because thats all you learned and to state it as fact is a huge misconception. There is just as many impractical techniques in KM as there is in other martial art systems, but this is just opinion and I will leave it at that. Tons of clips on this site

No spirituality ? Were talking about one of the most spiritual countries in the world, Israel, which is where KM was "developed".. the way KM is delivered in the US, is much different than in Israel, in much the same ways Japanese Karate Dojos is much different than American Karate Dojos.

OMFG, where the hell is that KRAV MAGA "dojo" at??? That tall dark guy is like doing all that KRAV like it was choreographed for a movie or something. All the moves
he does he puts his guard down, I have been told like a million
time "keep your hands up!!" like on the clip web49.mpg where the guy is pushing him forward and the dark guy does a front vert kick, his hands are totally jelly and he has his whole top open in case he missed or did't slow down the attacker!! Then not to mention he looks like he almost lost all his balance doing that vert kick.

#141297 - 06/06/05 09:46 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Subedei]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa

you are probrably right - I think that if it was available to me, I would study haipkido, it seems like a great system. my understanding of KM is that it is not an "art" or even a way of life - a style to be studied for life, it is a system to teach people to be prepared quickly to fight. and, if you were able to devote time and energy to lifelong learning of a martial art there may be better ways to invest that time and energy.

#141298 - 06/06/05 10:37 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: globetrotter]
Subedei Offline

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 479
There are lots of arts like Hapkido, it's just what I choose to study.

#141299 - 06/06/05 11:38 PM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Subedei]
Bushi_no_ki Offline

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1669
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
It seems to me the principle behind KM is minimal technique, but with adaptability, easy to learn the foundation, perfect as you go along. That's what everything I've ever read or heard indicated.

Main point about the Israeli military. You sign up, you commit several years of your life (about twenty, I think) to a "National Guard" type of duty. You do so many years of active duty, and then you train every so often for the rest of your term. If KM is more basic and direct, then it is easier to teach to a military that has it's members training once or twice a month, and keep them up to minimal proficiency, which I have also heard is actually somewhat higher than US standards (the result of all the turmoil and violence). If KM is faster to learn, that is exactly why it is faster to learn, it's minimalist in nature and designed to provide sufficient fighting ability to those who need it.

#141300 - 06/18/05 06:05 PM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: jaret345]
madmattg Offline

Registered: 06/18/05
Posts: 47
Loc: Brisbane, Qld, Australia
KM is faster to learn because they dont place much emphasis on how you puncg or kick ( ie technique wise ) they teach the move and let you investigate your counter etc. Also without any tradition in katas, forms or showy rubbish it does leave much else to learn. 1 year of learning the only place to go any further is become an instructor.
It wasnt the bow or the arrow......It was Robin Hood.

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