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#141274 - 05/10/05 04:34 AM KM faster to learn?
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I've done some reading on KM. They claim it is faster to learn than other MA. I don't understand where they get that from. This seems to be a marketing strategy to atract people who want a quick fix. There are no faster ways or quick fixes. It takes time and dedication to learn anything helpful.What do you think?
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#141275 - 05/10/05 05:29 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
because KM is tought to military units, they must be able to teach effective methods in the shortest possible tim period, using high repitition training and skill development sets. I have learned something similar that imploys the same techniques, after learning numerous other martial arts, and have found that the way we train allows the techniques to be taught in a short period. Generally it doesnt try to make you perfect the style, just learn basics which you can utilize straight away and then elaborate on as you train regularly. And what would you consider helpful? i think a palm strike... the first strike i learned in my style is probably the most effective, and was given numerous resons why during my first lesson. i learned it... in one lesson... it was useful... is an hour long enough to learn anything useful? Yes it is!


Edited by Ace (05/10/05 05:32 AM)

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#141276 - 05/10/05 05:59 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Ace]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

because KM is tought to military units, they must be able to teach effective methods in the shortest possible tim period,




Exactly what I mean by quick fix.

Quote:

using high repitition training and skill development sets.




Don't all ma styles use high repetition sets?

Quote:

I have learned something similar that imploys the same techniques, after learning numerous other martial arts, and have found that the way we train allows the techniques to be taught in a short period.




Really? What numerous other martial arts did you"learn"?

Quote:

Generally it doesnt try to make you perfect the style, just learn basics which you can utilize straight away and then elaborate on as you train regularly. And what would you consider helpful? i think a palm strike... the first strike i learned in my style is probably the most effective, and was given numerous resons why during my first lesson. i learned it... in one lesson... it was useful... is an hour long enough to learn anything useful? Yes it is!




Uh, No.

Sure! If you do a palm strike 10,000 times with each hand in one hour. Then try it on resisting opponents until success.
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#141277 - 05/10/05 06:32 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
quick fix? yes i guess it is if you mean it in that context. i have done wing chun, hung fut kung fu, aikido, muay thai, boxing and some seminars for other styles, why do you ask? as for high rep exercises, it would depend on the person, but after a lesson, i believe i can walk out feeling competent that if the need arised, i would be able to uses the technique, although i forget to mention, many things tought have more to do with environmental training and awareness, such as... i can use this pencil to kill a man if the need arises, and i can do it by striking these vital areas, as i have just been tought... or, how am i going to fight in a corner? by training in the corner... At the few karate dojo's i have trained at, i did not personally like what they tought and left quickly, not because i believed the info was obsolete, but the delivery of the information. why do street fighters win fights? they dont do any formal martial arts (well, some might) but lash out aty you, and as such, i have seen many MA lose in fights against them... so ... Uh, Yes.. i dont do palm strikes 10,000 times in an hour either, i used that as an example of an effective technique thats benifits were outlined to me in a scientific fashiom. such as 1) you wont break knuckles or wrists, 2) it is more socially acceptable to onlookers if you arent just 'punching thier brains out' 3) you can palmstrike a brick wall all day, but if you did it with a punch, you would quickly give up in preferance to palm strike, 4) palm strikes require no formal training as to wrist alighnment, so there is less chance of sustaining an injury for beginners, and there is more overall biometric stability, resulting in greater power. as for high reps, not all systems do utilize them, such as some grappling sports, as it would be impracticles to try and do an armbar/takedown 10 thousand times in an hour. when i say learn to the above mentioned martial arts i refer to basic training to advanced training and have put alot of hours into this. As for resisting opponents, we do full contact sparring, and i have easily been able to effectively utilise a technique learnt on the day, hope it answers all your questions, although i dont know why we are making this about me, as all i was doing was answering your question according to my opinion

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#141278 - 05/10/05 06:46 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Ace]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Didn't mean anything personal. Sorry if I came off that way. When someone says they've learned various arts I question them.Considering it takes many years to learn an art.
Who says streetfighters win fights against true martial artist? They may win against sport oriented versions who give the misconception that they are learning self defense.
Lots of styles use the palm strike. I like it.
I just think anyone could learn just as much in any other style with the proper training.
I also think when you bypass all the basics in a style to get down to the nitty gritty you end up with poor technique and basically a brawler.You need a good foundation to start with.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#141279 - 05/10/05 07:18 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
i agree, but many styles these days (im not sure if for money, or mainly because they do require a degree of mastery) say you must r=train for so many years bfore acheiving something, and may spend time instilling morals, philosophys and ideas in your head, which i agree is important, whereas because in KM the main focus is self defence, they may not incoperate this into learning, freeing up time for other things. My experiences of street fighters beating up MA is personal, and do not wish to convey that that is always the case, it just has been for the majority of fights ive seen.. please note, MA who have had experience in street fights fare better than anyone, as would be expected. i dont actually do KM, so please realise that my veiws towards it were made in un biased light, just merely that the style i do which is like KM is, in my personal beliefs, one of the most immediatly effective styles i have learnt, mainly because it tries to adress street confrontation issues, whereas many traditional MA may not. as for a good foundation, that is the problem with KM, it only uses basics, but that is why it is easy to learn. As for 'learning' a martial art, it depends what this word means personally means to you. whould you consider learning the process of becoming adept at something as part of a whole (eg. being able to take off or land, as a pilot must) or learning the thing as a whole (being able to land, fly, takeoff and access problems while in the air) this is just an example, but do you consider been able to defend against an attacker with success (as you may be able to learn in KM) or absolutly win a.k.a. flawless victory? if you go out to learn a style, depending on what you are looking for, you may, or may not. i believe KM try to teach you things that you will be able to use, but it does not neccesarily mean you will have mastered them. another example would be someone with a knife. they can senselessly stab you, as it will still work, but many people train in knife fighting in a hope to learn where, how and why they should satb you in that manner. i use this as an example only, but think that it shows you my arguement of learning how to do something, as opposed to why you may do it in that manner, or when you should do it. sorry if its a bit long, and everyone is entitled to their veiws, but i hope you understand what im trying to say, not that im just saying it. Also, many schools say it takes years to become profecient in a style. i have seen people who have trained three times a week and have gained 'black belts' in under 6 years (not that i believe that means this person is a master an=t the style) but have seen other people train four hours a day every day of the year, and have been training for well over 6 years and have still not attained that rank, yet many believe this means that because the first example has a blackbelt, he is better versed at fighting that the second example. if you trained for four hours a day for one year, you would have trained far more than SOME blackbelts, and would probably be incredibly proficient in your style. your training may equal that of someone who has 'years' of training, so SANCHIN31, please think about this next time you say it takes 'years' to master something, and think more along the terms of it takes many hundreds of hours to learn something

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#141280 - 05/10/05 07:27 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: Ace]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
That's a good point.It's the amount of actual training time you put in,not how long it's been since you started.As for blackbelts,it's different at every school.A blackbelt just means you're a good student.
To say you know or learn something means every aspect of it to me. I can say I "know" how to punch,but unless I can apply a proper punch to a resisting opponent where I intend I really don't "know" it.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#141281 - 05/10/05 10:06 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: SANCHIN31]
globetrotter Offline
does unto others before they do unto him

Registered: 01/10/05
Posts: 637
Loc: ny usa
krav maga has a few advantages in terms of time it takes to learn

1. it is extremly no nonsense - there are thngs that you teach beginers in other martial arts that are not actually used, but give a base for things that you will learn later. there is very little like this in krav maga. the moves you learn are all basic, simple and practical

2. krav maga training is all as real as possible. you don't have black belts who have never realy sparred, because in your first few lessons you will get pysical, and you will keep it up.

3. there is nothing fancy - it is a few basic moves, a few basic targets, no high kicks, no fancy joint work, etc. the idea is to teach people to take down a threat fast and simple.

4. there is nothing spiritual or mystical about krav maga - it is engineering, not art. you are tought an attitude about how to bring force into play, in order to end threats. you won't see anybody learning how to to a sword kata, but you will see people learning how to hit with a fire extinguisher.


I studied krav maga for 2 course, almost 20 years ago. one course was 2 weeks long, and the other was 6 weeks long, but wasn't just focused on krav maga. I still remember a hell of a lot that was tought me there, and when I spar, I use that more than the style that I study now.

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#141282 - 05/10/05 10:57 AM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: globetrotter]
csinca Offline
former moderator

Registered: 04/16/03
Posts: 672
Loc: Southern California
Making blanket statements comparing styles is a dangerous game is is more often then not only going to lead to examples of why the comparison is false. However in this case I would support the statement that Krav in its essence is faster to learn based solely on the fact that it is distilled down to a few basics.

In the two years that I have been training in Krav we primarily work on three kicks plus knee strikes. Compare this to the number of kicks that I learned and practiced in TKD and in Wah Lum Kung Fu. In Wah Lum we had a kata that was called "the eight kicks" and that covered the basic kicks. So if I spend the same time practicing three kicks or eight kicks, which will I develop proficiency in faster???

The same can be said of hand strikes...

Of course maybe eight different kicks gives you more options, but the theory in Krav is not to bog down with options but to "get it on".

The other thing to keep in mind is that different schools are going to teach an art different ways. I personally believe the training method is more important than the art. I have only trained Krav in one place so I don't have a wide perspective on how the art is trained. However, from the comments made by visitors, we tend to training more on contact than other places. Even within the Krav umbrella you are going to find good and bad!

Chris

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#141283 - 05/10/05 01:54 PM Re: KM faster to learn? [Re: globetrotter]
jaret345 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 327
Loc: new york
if you remember a lot of the moves from krav maga why don't you go for moderator?

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