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#141163 - 05/18/05 03:55 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
A lot of Kalia/Silat teachers think that Karate/TKD are just sports now,and that what they teach has always been for the street. But recently I've seen competition events for these systems, the more popular a Arts gets the more particpants, the more they want to test their skills, the more commercailism. Then the more safety issuses and law suits, then the art gets watered down for saftey now we are doing it for sport and they will be in same shape as Karate. In less then 5 years, unless it done undergroud less publicity, which kills growth.

Some people still have small classes of self defense Karate/Tkd thats geared toward the street.

What I noticed is the opposite the tourney fighter is quicker and faster, hoping on one leg he can kick you 3-5 times. Leave you standing smiling what happened.

The Street training Practictioner is fast but alittel slower, more deliberate, more powerful and you are never left standing or smiling. You may wake up wondering what happened.
_________________________
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#141164 - 05/18/05 04:18 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Neko456 -

Quote:

The Street training Practictioner is fast but alittel slower, more deliberate, more powerful




I agree with that assessment for the most part. Training to throw deliberate power shots requires a certain amount of body commitment that non-contact practitioners do not need.

This will leave you in harm's way a little longer than just tagging and moving, which may appear to be slower, even though the "street" practitioner is actually just as fast as the non-contact person.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#141165 - 05/18/05 05:16 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: MattJ]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Maybe also more techniques are done in close range, which requires more body work (tai sabaki) and are slower?
(balance-breaking, bumping, joint-locks/breaks...)

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#141166 - 05/18/05 05:34 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Neko and MattJ,

You hit the nail on the head. My same assement has been that when you are sparring lightly or with point guys, there is quite a bit of speed, but no follow through which allows quicker recovery to send off secondary attacks. It does make it harder for the defender to capitalize on the strikes, but then again...why worry so much if they don't have "Pow" in the shot.

When sparring with a full contact striker, they may be a bit slower in their combos and set up their shots more, but the addtitional commitment and subsequent impact makes these shots hard to ignore.

-B

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#141167 - 05/19/05 12:18 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: butterfly]
blood_riot_iori Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 3
hello everyone, i'm new to this site, so bear with me i post something incorrectly or anything. Anywho, this topic intrests me, so i will say a bit about it. Sorry, i know what i'm addressing has been moved on from, but i wanna post anyways:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRBoy says that shotokan karateka's punches are weak, aren't here any shotokan people to address that?
Although my experiance is small enough to disqualify me from speaking on this matter, I will still do so, explicitely from that small experiance:
During my years of training in MA, I've had the pleasure of training together with two shotokan stylists (one shodan and one 1.kyu).
Although the focus of their training was different from that of my own (and different from each other's too, come to think of it), both possessed (and for all I know, still possess) strong and fast punches!
Just my two cents...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



hmmm this is interesting, if u were to read up about shotokan karate you will find that shotokan is KNOWN for its STRONG punches. I am a black belt in shotokan karate, but i have also trained in tae kwon do, kajukenpo, shito ryu and judo. None of them were even close to having the punching of shotokan and i know judo is grappling so thats exempted, not to knock any other style because they have strong punches and i'm sure there are many people within those styles who have powerful punches, but throughout my training shotokan is the most powerful i've seen and its because of our training, constant repitition of the basics. Also, my school does not even compete in tournaments its all basics, kata and kumite, no sport. Sounds to me like ur friends are at a mcdojo. So before u speak about what u do not know think first Ishiinryu Boy.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


I have personally trained with Shotokanwarrior19 for 2 years now, and will continue to do so for many more. I know it's kinda bad to single out one person for making an ignorant comment, but IRBoy really got me riled when he made the comment about our style's (shotokan) punches being weak. As Shotokanwarrior19 stated, his friends must have been at a mcdojo, or facing off against some newcomers to the style, because of anyone here has ever been struck by a WELL taught shotokan fighter, they could attest to his statement being completely inaccurate. I am the kind of person who has respect for ANY style of karate-do or any martial art in general as long as it represents the teachings of self defense in a way that can actually be applied correctly, as in, not sport. I personally feel that sport karate has it's uses, but to me, they are more limited to that of the conditioning body strengthening that you'd gain from performing sport karate. From that aspect, i agree that it is not degrading, but to compair something that will as many people stated already, possibly get you killed because you try to take on a fight you're not prepared for, than i have to boo it, because to me, karate and other martial arts aren't a contest to see who's kicks look the prettiest, and who can fly the furthest when they jump, it's a means of building self confidence, and being able to step up when you have to, to defend yourself and those you love. Sorry if i rambled, but that's my feelings on the subject. Nice posting here and i hope to many times in the future.


Edited by blood_riot_iori (05/19/05 12:21 AM)

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#141168 - 05/19/05 11:38 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: blood_riot_iori]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
The last time I had the honor to train with a shotokan guy, he missed a punch and nearly put his hand through the wall. I wouldnt call that weak, the guy wasnt that big ethier.

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#141169 - 05/21/05 08:56 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
shotokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 13
Hi all, this is my first post - and suitably a topic i have recently had experience with.

First of ill just give u a little background so you can believe me! For many years I practiced shotokan karate and was member of the KUGB, training under Sensei Ronnie Christopher, grading under Sensei Frank Brennan and was awarded my 1st Dan my the late and great Sensei Enoeda at the age of 11! I competed regularly in regional and national competitions in the KUGB framework (plus some allstyles comps where we fought against kungfu etc) until i was 16, at which time i got distracted. (which is another story!)

I am at university in Manchester, one of the main reasons being i wanted to restart my study and the university has an excellent instructor in Sensei Garry Harford, who happened to be a close friend of my original Sensei. It was not long until the clubs university obligations came around and we had to compete in the BUSA karate championships. This was a long way away from what I was used to as "traditional" KUGB Shotokan Kumite. My clubmates (2 of whom are currently in the England senior squad) had warned me about how ridiculous it was...

The BUSA was vey "modern sports karate" orientated, where light knuckle mitts are worn and flashy gi's were the norm.. Points were awarded for "strikes that had good intent" which quickly learned to be "strikes that were clean in technique, but missed." And for "ficking techniques" that still baffles me. Despite our club coming second, which is testament to our Sensei, I cant help but feel that the whole experience was degrading to the art.

Just my "2cents", sorry my first post was a little rant!

Steven


Edited by shotokan (05/21/05 08:57 AM)

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#141170 - 05/21/05 09:00 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: shotokan]
shotokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 13
oh, and on to on the topic of "shotokan punches being weak," Id like to say that in my "sabbatical" from shotokan I started full contact kickboxing, and i assure you my 6/6KO amateur record does not testify to weak shotokan punching... :P

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#141171 - 05/23/05 06:19 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
PineForest Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Nebraska
I do not care much for sport karate, but I do believe it has an interesting training purpose that is difficult (though, not impossible) to create in a dojo environment. In a life threatening situation, the number one obstacle to quick and proper reaction is the tension and anxiety (fear) of what may happen. One may be excellent at sparring fellow karate-ka in the dojo, but the anxiety and stress that is created can literally freeze your reaction and confuse your typically focused mind. A similar--albeit lesser--reaction can be experienced in a tournament situation. If you are sparring in tournaments, obviously you put a high value on winning your match. This creates a similar obstacle of tension and stress (or fear). Learning to surpass this physical reaction is a very valuable Karate lesson that translates directly into self defense. Since Mas Oyama's hundred man kumite is not common in many dojos anymore, this seems to be a modern day solution.

This being said, I still think a sad result of sport training is the belief that these high flying, tit-for-tat techniques are also effective against someone who wants to do you harm and isn't playing by the rules. I think it's the instructor's responsibility to clarify this to his/her students.
_________________________
I spanked you as a baby, and I'll spank you now.

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#141172 - 05/24/05 12:11 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
I've,Said this many times before,& I might as well say it again.
Sport karate is okay,But tomuch sport & not enough self defense;will not help in a selfdefense situation.

Certainly,If a person would use kumite & nothing else,
He/she would more than likely try to score a point,Then to defend his/herself.

Also,The majority of fights are too close to attempt any kumite, Patty cake technique.

I Was pondering about this the other day,& I believe with the majority children watching what's on the TV/movies,Just might be why sport karate is chosen over self defense.
For example,The child will see their hero perform a highkick,The child or teen will do the samething in order just to be like that person on the television.

I've also, known some "instructors" That have taught kumite,Rather then teaching selfdefense, The reason for that's b/c his/her instructor did'nt self defense either.
It could also be,That some instructors are just too lazy to instruct the students,What should've been taught b/c the studnts are dictating what should be taught.
Which is part of the problem,The Instructor gives in b/c the children will have fun,& Yet that's when false confidence takes over.

So,The answer to the original question is yes,Sport is degrading karate.
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

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