FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 35 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bartfast, ZapEm, AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc
22906 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 8
AndyLA 5
Ed_Morris 4
futsaowingchun 3
VDJ 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Life goes on....
by Dobbersky
08/07/14 05:59 AM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Bartfast
08/05/14 04:18 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
The Karate punch
by Matakiant
10/30/13 07:41 AM
Recent Posts
Biu Tzu- Snake hand strike
by futsaowingchun
Yesterday at 09:02 PM
An open letter to bunkai researchers...
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:58 PM
The Karate punch
by Ed_Morris
08/26/14 09:27 PM
Chum Kiu 2nd section applications
by futsaowingchun
08/20/14 09:54 PM
2013 World Championship Rio: The Gallery (HD)
by ergees
08/19/14 05:22 AM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by VDJ
08/15/14 05:46 PM
Chi Sao demonstration
by futsaowingchun
08/14/14 10:57 PM
** Introduce Yourself! **
by Dobbersky
08/11/14 05:03 AM
Decent Fight channel
by FrankyFruits
08/07/14 09:19 PM
2014 European Championships Cadets Athens: Videos
by ergees
08/07/14 10:00 AM
Forum Stats
22906 Members
36 Forums
35572 Topics
432478 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
Topic Options
#141123 - 05/09/05 09:07 PM Is sport degrading karate?
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
I'd like to know peoples views on this touchy subject. I'm not really against sport in karate as I believe people have a right to do what they want. However I am concerned with how modern karate do is teaching sport aspects as self-defense techniques and watering down the self-defense side of karate so much that the techiques and original purposes are lost. The biggest example I've seen of this which really disturbs me, is how kata is taught with absolutely no bunkai and beginner students are allowed to change different aspects of kata because they are seen as unimportant parts or karate. Also what bothers me is the lack of morals, and focus on just fighting and not avoidance.

-------------
Teach what you know,regardless of when you learned it--teach what you learned yesterday sagely, as if you have kown it all your life, and teach what you have known for decades with enthusiasm, as if you learned it only yesterday

Top
#141124 - 05/09/05 09:53 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I believe "political commercialism" degrades karate, and modern sport karate is a byproduct of the "PC". Still doesnt take away the fact that modern sport karateka are still conditioned athletes, usually very fast, agile, and powerful athletes, which definately isnt a bad thing.
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

Top
#141125 - 05/09/05 10:39 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
This isn't addressed to the author of the topic...this is to everyone reading. [edit] INCLUDING myself! [/edit]

If what you are doing feels degrading...then don't do it.

Change starts with the individual...if more people start realizing this is not what we want, the market will gradually adapt to satisfy our interests. simple supply and demand economics.

Sport Karate is neither good nor bad..it's what 'we' wanted and 'we' get what 'you' deserve.

Same goes for anything we have a choice on: a leader of your country, a fuel efficient car, investing in kids and education, eating junk food.... we get what you deserve.

Take responsibility for your own choices by being aware of the quality of those choices and maybe we'll see a change.

Top
#141126 - 05/09/05 10:55 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
I will reply to this anyway, I didnt say that sport karate is bad. What bothers me is sport karate methods being passed off as self-defense or combative methods. Theres suckers out there that dont know the difference, and think sport is sd, if they knew that is wasnt I dont think they'd want it anymore. Theres a sucker born every minute, that I believe does damage karate. I'm fine with the sport side and used to enjoy it, but I have a big problem when teachers out there teach sport methods that will get people seriously hurt.

Top
#141127 - 05/10/05 01:36 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Yes! In a way it has. People doing sport karate got the big head and got whooped. Giving karate a bad rap as being ineffective. Most people don't even know the difference between them. Sometimes I am asked "oh, you do karate too?",me,"yes". "My cousin is a blackbelt and he won first place at his last tournament! What place did you get?" me. "ummm,well,nevermind"
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141128 - 05/10/05 04:09 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Perhaps if you implemented a set of rules that had people actually doing this semi-mythical "hitting" thing to each other, instead of playing tag with neon sock-em boppers?

Top
#141129 - 05/10/05 07:59 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Hedgehogey]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Sport Karate has degraded the arts in some way, but in other ways, it has improved it. It can degrade a dojo when the entire focus is on the next tournament, but there are dojos out there that might attend tournaments, but focus on the traditions and the functionality of what they teach. The best forms I've ever seen in tournaments were done by traditionalist practitioners who did the kata exactly as they were taught, as if they were going up for a belt grading. And the best thing is, when these guys go to tournaments, they show power and proper technique, not a bunch of worthless flash, and they do win trophies.

Top
#141130 - 05/10/05 08:14 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
I like sport karate, especially for the youth (8 - 25 yo).
I started some 25 years ago at age 15. We would do warm-up
makiwara kihon kata and jiu kumite. In kata, no explenation was given and we would only do gekisai sanchin saifa seyunchin. In kumite, fighting was hard semi contact (moderate on face and not below hips) implementing mostly only kihon techniques. We would fight ippon shobu and sanbon shobu systems in tournaments with moderate contact on face (no injury) but mostly all-out on body. No contact on throat no open hand techniques in face. On average 1 out of 10 would still train after a year. Of the hundreds maybe even more than thousand, I have known coming and going the last 25 years only 20 have reached shodan. Focus was very heavy on kumite. Minimum age to start was 14 years old.
Nowadays, we focus on kata and moderate contact fighting for the youth. Most start at age 8 - 12 and this is our base to work for the future of karate. I like to give them short term goals like training for a tournament once and a while. This gives them focus and makes them enthousiastic. Although it should be stressed that winning is not the goal but improving yourself. As such, competition training should be done in prparation for but not the goal of training. Overal we encourage to participate 2 - 3 times a year in tournament. From 16 year old till 25+ year old the sport factor is an individual decision. If your good at it, why not persue it. Afterall after 25 you can still persue mor than 50 years(let's hope) all the other aspects within karate. Again focus in our dojo is towards a traditional approach with general application knowledge of kata techniques. On sports level, the federation has sport training available at least 2 time a month for all +14 yo who wish to participate and additional training for 'selected' athletes.
I certainly agree that sport karate (kata and kumite) do not encompas the total value of karate but I am quite sure that regular sport kumite fighters (even point fighters) can make decent contact if necesary. As such, I am sure they will give a good fight when necesary.
Most important for me is to guide our students towards shodan. After that they can participate as they see fit either through sport or more traditional training. As such, I see the sport side as a tool to make karate popular and to train certain aspects like fighting distance and overcoming it, reaction training with others than with people from the dojo.
I am still involved in sport karate as a national referee but do not limit my training to only sport techniques and strategies, in fact I no longer train focused on sport but teach from time to time focussing on sport.
The self defense aspect is, I believe, more a mental than physical issue. Sport fighting can help into overcoming fear of contact with strangers.
So to conclude, I think sport karate is not degrading it as long as it is viewed as a tool and not becomes the standard. Without it, I do not think karate would be so popular.

Top
#141131 - 05/10/05 09:19 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: CVV]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
wow good topic. I have had this discussion with my dojo many times. We do not do tournaments of any kind. If a student is interested in doing one, he or she may do so on their own time. I agree that sometimes some school overly focus on the sport or sparing aspects of martial arts. Ive seen a few where all they focus on is tournament techniques and what will get them the most points. The sad part is that those students think they are learining Self defense. They get the idea that a street situaton will be like sparring. Ive gotten into arguments with one student of mine in particular.
He transfered into our school from another style. We welcomed him and honored his blackbelt provided he take the time to learn our system as well. He comes from a hard tournament school. Any time we do self defense techniques he bounces around like he is sparring and tries to do all these tournament type techniques(high kicks, spin kicks, etc). He just cant seem to understand that in a tournament there are rules and regulations, on the street its different.

anyway im not saying all schools that do tournaments cant defend themselves on the street. As long as there is a good balance and an explanation of what is streetdefense techniques and what is gonna get you a point in a tournament, then tournaments are fine. I just feel that too many people get into that overly competetive attitude and they think that what works in the ring will work in the street.
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

Top
#141132 - 05/10/05 03:01 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
I'm not sure that sport is the only reason that the "self defence" training got lost. I'm absolutely no history expert, but the very little research I have done indicates that Itosu et al's project of including (the forerunner of) karate in the Okinawan scool program, meant changing the practice methods quite a bit (to suite training for children and teaching of large groups).

Of course the term "karate" came along after this change had occured, so one could argue that karate always was a much simpler (I don't want to use the term degraded, because it worked well and served it's purpose, albeit that purpose may have differed from that of it's precursor) art than the Okinawan (Chinese influenced) arts from which it was developed. In that point of view sport hasn't done much to "degrade" it, on the contrary it has helped spread and nurture the interest in the "karate arts".

I wonder how many of us would have been introduced to these wonderful traditions, if it weren't for the same people that in our eyes degraded them?
(it's like malt whiskies, how likely is it that we would have access to that wonderful word today, if it wasn't for the popularity of the blended stuff that spread around the globe)
But I do agree that if you teach competition sparring, it would be more honest to call it so.

Top
#141133 - 05/10/05 03:42 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: nenipp]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
actually (and correct me if the year is off a bit) the term karate was agreed upon in the 1930's, and sport karate came about not soon after. Itosu would have been dead. In fact ive read that funakoshi stopped goin to certain dojos that only engaged in sparring because he felt it degraded the art and went against the purpose of the art.im no historian either so someone plz correct me if i am wrong
_________________________
There is always someone who knows more, and noone who knows it all....

Top
#141134 - 05/10/05 03:55 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: nenipp]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
There is some thruth in what you say nenipp. But after WWII Okinawa lost its grip on what was happening in Japan. Under European initiatif during the 60 - 70, a world sport karate organisation was set up with mainly JKA influence (WUKO). The development in Europe in the 80 was much sport oriented. Towards the mid 90
there came a movement towards traditional training and historic research of the origin of karate. This now results in a differentiation as sport or traditional karate training. So the traditionalists grasp back to 'older' values and do much research in Okinawan traditions but even then it is difficult to grasp the 'true' teachings. I think it is important to keep evolving with society to give it 'added value'. As such, sport is a great tool to contribute to society. But in reflection of the evolution, it is good to look back into the past. As such the traditionalist movement is good too. The goals to be achieved in the 19th century are no longer the goals for the 21th century and training adapts as such. Sport is a part of this evolution but in my opinion not a degrading factor.

Top
#141135 - 05/10/05 05:03 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Chatan1979]
ai-uchi Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 200
Loc: harlow essex
How does the sporting aspect of karate degrade the art of karate. nobody says that sport karate is the same as karate jutsu, although i can tell you fromfirst hand experience that receiving a punc from Engalnd internationals is not a pleasant experience. i can also state with first and experience that the 1990's Northern ireland WUKO (WKF) team spent the majority of time doig kihon and kata, yet they were highly trained, motivated and talented sportsmen.

i think often that people confuse their club tournaments with what is happeing at European/world level. In WKF events they are now expected to demonstrate bunkai of the kata, now as i am positive each national federation has acces to top quality kata experts i would say that the sport is actually helping to maintain the art.
_________________________
streakers - your end is in sight

Top
#141136 - 05/10/05 05:55 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: ai-uchi]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
I see nothing wrong at all with sport karate, as long as its taught as sport and not sd or combatives. It is not self-defense, it is based on a set of rules and methods that work for scoring points and getting trophies/medals not ending violence. When a sport technique is taught in a combative manner and the student dont know the difference, that can and will get you possiably killed in a violent situation. I see a huge absolutely major difference in karate jutsu and sport methods. Ones for earning points and winning matches with set rules and techs, the others for flat out disabling or killing a violent attacker to protect yourself. However you'd be really surprised at how many people think the sport side is the jutsu side. I've seen many top sport karate ka do kata and not know anything about them, nor be able to use any of the methods in them. I dont have a problem with sports, but I do feel sometimes that the sport side is killing the jutsu in karate.


Edited by AgenT (05/10/05 05:57 PM)

Top
#141137 - 05/10/05 07:31 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
You know, as an outsider to karate, I can safely say that the reason people think of karate as innefective is generally due to the LACK of sparring and hard contact sport.

Top
#141138 - 05/10/05 08:19 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hedgehogey,

Normally I would agree with you, however one has to then decide what is sport karate. I am not talking about point tournaments only here. Harder competitions would be the Kyokushin tournaments...No face punches, but full contact everywhere else and no pads. The Sabaki Challenge...same as Kyokushin, but now you add throws. Sometimes there are nasty knockouts that are pretty fun to watch. Also, the K-1 Grand Prixs get their thumps going as catering to kick boxers, however their tournament is under Seido Karate and Isshi who was a former Ashihara Karate Branch Manager. Many of the K-1 Grand Prix guys were former Kyokushin players that switched over to Ishii, including Andy Hug. They were respectable Karateka.

If you consider these sporting tournaments as encompassing Karate, then there are some good hard knocks available.

Just some thoughts.

-B

Top
#141139 - 05/10/05 11:37 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: butterfly]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
Is sport degrading karate?
YES
Karate is NOT a sport. The karate that is practiced like a sport is not karate. After WWII karate was lamentably "mixed" with the American culture... that's why many people thinks that karate is synonymous of "fight", "kick ass", "sport" and stuff.
Karate is not brake bricks!. So sorry, but karate is JAPANESE not AMERICAN, so if anyone thinks that karate is a sport because he say so, or his sensei say so, WRONG, you are not doing the real karate.


Edited by Camilo_kun (05/10/05 11:39 PM)
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141140 - 05/11/05 12:23 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Camilo_kun]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Karate is not japanese.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141141 - 05/11/05 12:53 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
ups
karate Shotokan/Shotokai is japanese. Master Gichin Funakoshi begint it in Tokyo, Japan.
[image]http://www.shotokai.cl/imagenes/historicas/osensei.jpg[/image]
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141142 - 05/11/05 02:28 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Camilo_kun]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

So sorry, but karate is JAPANESE not AMERICAN, so if anyone thinks that karate is a sport because he say so, or his sensei say so, WRONG, you are not doing the real karate.





Oh no you didn't!!! Karate is American!!! I'm American,I learned from American instructors!!! Am I not doing karate?
If you're talking about the origins you're wrong there too!!! You need to go back before the Jappanese(schoolboy) influence.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141143 - 05/11/05 10:23 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Camilo_kun]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Let's look at the contributions where they are due.

Okinawans (pre ~1900)
Toudi/Tode comes from a mixture of empty handed Chinese fighting arts('Tang','Tou',or 'To'), brought to Okinawa by political envoys, merchants and sailors from Fujian Province, with indigenous Okinawan martial arts('Te').

Japan (post ~1900)
Using the Okinawan fighting techniques of Toude as a base...
* Organised, systemized and catorgorized practice into it's three major parts: kata, kihon, and kumite.
* Added the 'Budo' notion. (and all the rituals and values thereof).
* Greatly influenced the decision to rename Toudi to Karate, in a time of rising nationalism.

Post WWII - Branching out simultaneously in many directions from Okinawa and Japan... Karate is further influenced by Hawaii,America and the World, in a myriad of interpretations under the 'Karate' distinction of Martial Arts.

Which is the 'real' Karate?
Does it depend on which elements are 'real' for you?

Personally, I strive to study Okinawan Toudi thru the guidance of Japanese Budo art pricipals. I'm a far cry from actually being able to doing this, but thats my intent and journey.

Top
#141144 - 05/11/05 12:08 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5822
Loc: USA

Overall, yes sport is degrading karate.

(I read "sport" as open tournament competition BTW)

But such things are NOT limited to karate.

The UFC does weight classes now, plus the list of "illegal" techniques gets longer every year.
It may take years, but sooner or later even the UFC will not be the event that it was.

As far as karate goes, the problem with sport is the same thing that its always been--in order to have tounaments you have to have rules, the rules have to be the same for everyone--which means all fighters HAVE to use pretty much the same set of techniques and tactics--which creates a "sport" style of karate. Where pretty much everyone fights the same and uses the same sdet of techniques.

The other problem is also an old one--people wish to "win" so the folks that want to win the most spend most of the time training and working tournament techniques.

Sure there are advantages, but overall I think the "sport" approach hurts more than it helps.

Just my 2 cents
_________________________
I did battle with ignorance today.......and ignorance won. Huey.

Top
#141145 - 05/11/05 02:22 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: cxt]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
Thats a good point, give it a couple of years and everyone will want to take ufc off the air.

Top
#141146 - 05/11/05 02:45 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: butterfly]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Quote:

Hedgehogey,

Normally I would agree with you, however one has to then decide what is sport karate. I am not talking about point tournaments only here. Harder competitions would be the Kyokushin tournaments...
-B




That's kinda what I was trying to steer this conversation towards. Oyama had the right idea, but he didn't go far enough with his competition format. Kyokushin rules also forbid grabbing the gi for more than a second...Except that so many bunkai involve grabbing the wrist, gi, etc. and pulling it around.

You could go farther by equipping competitors with full face guard and allowing them to grab their partner's gi/wrist and strike the face, with concurrent rewards by the judges for good bunkai application. Hell, grabbing the wrist and pulling it around is perfectly functional and able to be used in competition, but many karateka consider it to be too mega face blasting and ultra joint exploding to ever actually use.

Of course, this might also result in people dancing on their toes, jabbing, etc, which would make it DUN DUNN DUNNN somewhat resemble muay thai, which would mean the death of the pure, nordic, karate ubermensch.

Top
#141147 - 05/11/05 04:41 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: cxt]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
Quote:


The other problem is also an old one--people wish to "win" so the folks that want to win the most spend most of the time training and working tournament techniques.




Good point. For me, i hope winning to myself to evolve my karate, not to defeat another person in a championship or so.
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141148 - 05/11/05 05:17 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Hedgehogey]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Hedgehogey,

You could do all these things for competition's sake and I don't know if it would help. There are benefits and detriments to various full contact/body protection scenarios. If you put gloves on...no grabs. If you have head gear, you ruin your peripheral vision and change the impact zone of bare hand techniques by 1-2 inches (head gear + glove thickness). This also compromises blocking and parrying since the distance has been changed.

I have also sparred using some of the full face guards that other styles use and this makes your straight punches go to hell since the face plate is again a couple inches out from the face ruining the impact zone of the punch. Some people then start concentrating on hooks to the side of the head where the protection is a little bit thinner. Again, your choice of punch has been limited by the use of protective gear and therefore you focus on more accomodating techniques and take away from what might be more appropriate in a real situation.

I have sparred full contact with grabs, sans face punches with a Nipon Kempo stylist that was used to face gear and body armor. He couldn't take a leg kick and his "body stamina" was not up to par compared with some Kyokushin players I sparred with. Different rules with different allowances for protection, signal different techniques and varying levels of intensity to the contact. However, they are still games.

But I do agree, the greater the live resistance and the truer the contact, the more utility the practice has. But again, I recognize sparring as a type of practice and not the "real" thing.

Warmest regards,

B

Top
#141149 - 05/12/05 04:38 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Hedgehogey]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

You know, as an outsider to karate, I can safely say that the reason people think of karate as innefective is generally due to the LACK of sparring and hard contact sport.




I agree totally. If you're a karate-ka and can't kickbox (not point sparring) then something is the matter. After all kickboxing was started by several karate men, specifically Shorin Ryu stylists. That should be a minmum requirement at least up to Shodan, regular jiyu kumite using minuted rounds.

Beyond that you should understand basic wrestling (ti/tegumi/tuite) and throwing/unbalancing techs as well as the fundamental ukemi. Once you get to Shodan and have displayed some proficiency in all ranges and a mastery of the striking ranges then you can concentrate on more kata analysis, kobudo and the use of full-speed partner drills.

IMO, too much kickboxing at the BB level is actually detrimental to a healthy mind-body (read weapon), the self-preservation mindset and skills needed for SD training and using your waza like a karate man and not some pseudo boxer or kickboxer.

Don't think that there aren't karate people who can't use their MA in a practical manner.

Top
#141150 - 05/13/05 03:38 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Multiversed]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
Here's a very good text that explains the difference between "normal" Karate and karate like a sport. It's a very beautiful metaphor.
http://www.shotokaiubb.cl/El_arte_de.htm
The bad news is that is in spanish
Maybe tomorrow i'll try to translate it for you all.

ps: the text was written by Humberto Heyden Sensei.
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141151 - 05/13/05 03:39 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Camilo_kun]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Maybe tomorrow I can read it.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141152 - 05/15/05 09:54 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
IsshinRyuBoy Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/15/05
Posts: 6
i dont enter in tournaments and my sensei teachs me more katas and self-defense and not so much kumite...my friends of other styles, like shotokan, they enter in a lot of tournaments but they cant defend theirselves in a rlly street fighting and their punches are weak...if they like that way, what can i do...they like to use high and slow kicks while i prefer kicks on the knees and legs...

Top
#141153 - 05/15/05 10:05 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Camilo_kun]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts

Top
#141154 - 05/16/05 12:27 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
Thanks, i forget the google translator
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141155 - 05/16/05 12:52 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: IsshinRyuBoy]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
IRBoy says that shotokan karateka's punches are weak, aren't here any shotokan people to address that?
Although my experiance is small enough to disqualify me from speaking on this matter, I will still do so, explicitely from that small experiance:
During my years of training in MA, I've had the pleasure of training together with two shotokan stylists (one shodan and one 1.kyu).
Although the focus of their training was different from that of my own (and different from each other's too, come to think of it), both possessed (and for all I know, still possess) strong and fast punches!
Just my two cents...

Top
#141156 - 05/16/05 01:02 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: IsshinRyuBoy]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

i dont enter in tournaments and my sensei teachs me more katas and self-defense and not so much kumite...my friends of other styles, like shotokan, they enter in a lot of tournaments but they cant defend theirselves in a rlly street fighting and their punches are weak...if they like that way, what can i do...they like to use high and slow kicks while i prefer kicks on the knees and legs...




nenipp is right.There will be no art bashing on this forum in any way! Last warning Isshinryuboy. Don't reply,just comply!
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141157 - 05/16/05 01:40 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: nenipp]
shotokanwarrior19 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 129
Loc: Cortland, OH, USA
Quote:

IRBoy says that shotokan karateka's punches are weak, aren't here any shotokan people to address that?
Although my experiance is small enough to disqualify me from speaking on this matter, I will still do so, explicitely from that small experiance:
During my years of training in MA, I've had the pleasure of training together with two shotokan stylists (one shodan and one 1.kyu).
Although the focus of their training was different from that of my own (and different from each other's too, come to think of it), both possessed (and for all I know, still possess) strong and fast punches!
Just my two cents...




hmmm this is interesting, if u were to read up about shotokan karate you will find that shotokan is KNOWN for its STRONG punches. I am a black belt in shotokan karate, but i have also trained in tae kwon do, kajukenpo, shito ryu and judo. None of them were even close to having the punching of shotokan and i know judo is grappling so thats exempted, not to knock any other style because they have strong punches and i'm sure there are many people within those styles who have powerful punches, but throughout my training shotokan is the most powerful i've seen and its because of our training, constant repitition of the basics. Also, my school does not even compete in tournaments its all basics, kata and kumite, no sport. Sounds to me like ur friends are at a mcdojo. So before u speak about what u do not know think first Ishiinryu Boy.


Edited by shotokanwarrior19 (05/16/05 01:50 PM)

Top
#141158 - 05/16/05 01:52 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Sanchin]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

I believe "political commercialism" degrades karate, and modern sport karate is a byproduct of the "PC".




Hey Sanchin,

I am not familiar with the term you used here. I don't want to assume that I know what you mean or intended to mean. Could you take a moment to explain?

Thanks

Top
#141159 - 05/17/05 03:08 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: KiDoHae]
Camilo_kun Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 19
Loc: Chile
http://www.shotokai.jp/english/about/index.html
About Master Funakoshi.
"He also wrote the twenty lessons of karate-do, including "there is no first move in karate", which is a widely known lesson today. " (non-violence, not for fight.)

" Shoto-kai follows the last instruction of Master Funakoshi: "There are no contests in karate. Be devoted to kata (forms)." Shoto-kai has a lesson system that focuses on practicing kata. "
_________________________
I speak spanish, sorry my bad spelling :P

Top
#141160 - 05/17/05 03:26 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: KiDoHae]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Quote:

Quote:

I believe "political commercialism" degrades karate, and modern sport karate is a byproduct of the "PC".




Hey Sanchin,

I am not familiar with the term you used here. I don't want to assume that I know what you mean or intended to mean. Could you take a moment to explain?

Thanks




It's not my quote. I think it's kintamas.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

Top
#141161 - 05/17/05 10:44 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
nope not my quote...it was the lower-case Sanchin on the first page.

I know what 'political comercialism' is but how it relates to MA is beyond me. The closest example I can imagine is a stretch... Tax breaks to McDojo's ? lol

Top
#141162 - 05/18/05 02:25 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
Crap kintama, you just brought something up that a politician might consider, and from a political point of view, rightly so.

Dojos are a source of tax income for the state/nation. By giving a tax break to the dojo, it ensures that it stays open longer, thus allowing the government to collect more taxes overall. By giving a dojo its first five years with half income tax, the state would be able to ensure the dojo remained open the whole time, allowing for long term tax income.

Great, yet another way to allow mcdojos to prosper.

Top
#141163 - 05/18/05 03:55 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Kintama]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
A lot of Kalia/Silat teachers think that Karate/TKD are just sports now,and that what they teach has always been for the street. But recently I've seen competition events for these systems, the more popular a Arts gets the more particpants, the more they want to test their skills, the more commercailism. Then the more safety issuses and law suits, then the art gets watered down for saftey now we are doing it for sport and they will be in same shape as Karate. In less then 5 years, unless it done undergroud less publicity, which kills growth.

Some people still have small classes of self defense Karate/Tkd thats geared toward the street.

What I noticed is the opposite the tourney fighter is quicker and faster, hoping on one leg he can kick you 3-5 times. Leave you standing smiling what happened.

The Street training Practictioner is fast but alittel slower, more deliberate, more powerful and you are never left standing or smiling. You may wake up wondering what happened.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#141164 - 05/18/05 04:18 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Neko456]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
Prolific

Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Neko456 -

Quote:

The Street training Practictioner is fast but alittel slower, more deliberate, more powerful




I agree with that assessment for the most part. Training to throw deliberate power shots requires a certain amount of body commitment that non-contact practitioners do not need.

This will leave you in harm's way a little longer than just tagging and moving, which may appear to be slower, even though the "street" practitioner is actually just as fast as the non-contact person.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

Top
#141165 - 05/18/05 05:16 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: MattJ]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Maybe also more techniques are done in close range, which requires more body work (tai sabaki) and are slower?
(balance-breaking, bumping, joint-locks/breaks...)

Top
#141166 - 05/18/05 05:34 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: Neko456]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Neko and MattJ,

You hit the nail on the head. My same assement has been that when you are sparring lightly or with point guys, there is quite a bit of speed, but no follow through which allows quicker recovery to send off secondary attacks. It does make it harder for the defender to capitalize on the strikes, but then again...why worry so much if they don't have "Pow" in the shot.

When sparring with a full contact striker, they may be a bit slower in their combos and set up their shots more, but the addtitional commitment and subsequent impact makes these shots hard to ignore.

-B

Top
#141167 - 05/19/05 12:18 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: butterfly]
blood_riot_iori Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 3
hello everyone, i'm new to this site, so bear with me i post something incorrectly or anything. Anywho, this topic intrests me, so i will say a bit about it. Sorry, i know what i'm addressing has been moved on from, but i wanna post anyways:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IRBoy says that shotokan karateka's punches are weak, aren't here any shotokan people to address that?
Although my experiance is small enough to disqualify me from speaking on this matter, I will still do so, explicitely from that small experiance:
During my years of training in MA, I've had the pleasure of training together with two shotokan stylists (one shodan and one 1.kyu).
Although the focus of their training was different from that of my own (and different from each other's too, come to think of it), both possessed (and for all I know, still possess) strong and fast punches!
Just my two cents...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



hmmm this is interesting, if u were to read up about shotokan karate you will find that shotokan is KNOWN for its STRONG punches. I am a black belt in shotokan karate, but i have also trained in tae kwon do, kajukenpo, shito ryu and judo. None of them were even close to having the punching of shotokan and i know judo is grappling so thats exempted, not to knock any other style because they have strong punches and i'm sure there are many people within those styles who have powerful punches, but throughout my training shotokan is the most powerful i've seen and its because of our training, constant repitition of the basics. Also, my school does not even compete in tournaments its all basics, kata and kumite, no sport. Sounds to me like ur friends are at a mcdojo. So before u speak about what u do not know think first Ishiinryu Boy.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _


I have personally trained with Shotokanwarrior19 for 2 years now, and will continue to do so for many more. I know it's kinda bad to single out one person for making an ignorant comment, but IRBoy really got me riled when he made the comment about our style's (shotokan) punches being weak. As Shotokanwarrior19 stated, his friends must have been at a mcdojo, or facing off against some newcomers to the style, because of anyone here has ever been struck by a WELL taught shotokan fighter, they could attest to his statement being completely inaccurate. I am the kind of person who has respect for ANY style of karate-do or any martial art in general as long as it represents the teachings of self defense in a way that can actually be applied correctly, as in, not sport. I personally feel that sport karate has it's uses, but to me, they are more limited to that of the conditioning body strengthening that you'd gain from performing sport karate. From that aspect, i agree that it is not degrading, but to compair something that will as many people stated already, possibly get you killed because you try to take on a fight you're not prepared for, than i have to boo it, because to me, karate and other martial arts aren't a contest to see who's kicks look the prettiest, and who can fly the furthest when they jump, it's a means of building self confidence, and being able to step up when you have to, to defend yourself and those you love. Sorry if i rambled, but that's my feelings on the subject. Nice posting here and i hope to many times in the future.


Edited by blood_riot_iori (05/19/05 12:21 AM)

Top
#141168 - 05/19/05 11:38 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: blood_riot_iori]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
The last time I had the honor to train with a shotokan guy, he missed a punch and nearly put his hand through the wall. I wouldnt call that weak, the guy wasnt that big ethier.

Top
#141169 - 05/21/05 08:56 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
shotokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 13
Hi all, this is my first post - and suitably a topic i have recently had experience with.

First of ill just give u a little background so you can believe me! For many years I practiced shotokan karate and was member of the KUGB, training under Sensei Ronnie Christopher, grading under Sensei Frank Brennan and was awarded my 1st Dan my the late and great Sensei Enoeda at the age of 11! I competed regularly in regional and national competitions in the KUGB framework (plus some allstyles comps where we fought against kungfu etc) until i was 16, at which time i got distracted. (which is another story!)

I am at university in Manchester, one of the main reasons being i wanted to restart my study and the university has an excellent instructor in Sensei Garry Harford, who happened to be a close friend of my original Sensei. It was not long until the clubs university obligations came around and we had to compete in the BUSA karate championships. This was a long way away from what I was used to as "traditional" KUGB Shotokan Kumite. My clubmates (2 of whom are currently in the England senior squad) had warned me about how ridiculous it was...

The BUSA was vey "modern sports karate" orientated, where light knuckle mitts are worn and flashy gi's were the norm.. Points were awarded for "strikes that had good intent" which quickly learned to be "strikes that were clean in technique, but missed." And for "ficking techniques" that still baffles me. Despite our club coming second, which is testament to our Sensei, I cant help but feel that the whole experience was degrading to the art.

Just my "2cents", sorry my first post was a little rant!

Steven


Edited by shotokan (05/21/05 08:57 AM)

Top
#141170 - 05/21/05 09:00 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: shotokan]
shotokan Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/21/05
Posts: 13
oh, and on to on the topic of "shotokan punches being weak," Id like to say that in my "sabbatical" from shotokan I started full contact kickboxing, and i assure you my 6/6KO amateur record does not testify to weak shotokan punching... :P

Top
#141171 - 05/23/05 06:19 PM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
PineForest Offline
Member

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 26
Loc: Nebraska
I do not care much for sport karate, but I do believe it has an interesting training purpose that is difficult (though, not impossible) to create in a dojo environment. In a life threatening situation, the number one obstacle to quick and proper reaction is the tension and anxiety (fear) of what may happen. One may be excellent at sparring fellow karate-ka in the dojo, but the anxiety and stress that is created can literally freeze your reaction and confuse your typically focused mind. A similar--albeit lesser--reaction can be experienced in a tournament situation. If you are sparring in tournaments, obviously you put a high value on winning your match. This creates a similar obstacle of tension and stress (or fear). Learning to surpass this physical reaction is a very valuable Karate lesson that translates directly into self defense. Since Mas Oyama's hundred man kumite is not common in many dojos anymore, this seems to be a modern day solution.

This being said, I still think a sad result of sport training is the belief that these high flying, tit-for-tat techniques are also effective against someone who wants to do you harm and isn't playing by the rules. I think it's the instructor's responsibility to clarify this to his/her students.
_________________________
I spanked you as a baby, and I'll spank you now.

Top
#141172 - 05/24/05 12:11 AM Re: Is sport degrading karate? [Re: AgenT]
Isshinryukid4life Offline
Professional Injury causer

Registered: 12/07/03
Posts: 2455
Loc: Knoxville.
I've,Said this many times before,& I might as well say it again.
Sport karate is okay,But tomuch sport & not enough self defense;will not help in a selfdefense situation.

Certainly,If a person would use kumite & nothing else,
He/she would more than likely try to score a point,Then to defend his/herself.

Also,The majority of fights are too close to attempt any kumite, Patty cake technique.

I Was pondering about this the other day,& I believe with the majority children watching what's on the TV/movies,Just might be why sport karate is chosen over self defense.
For example,The child will see their hero perform a highkick,The child or teen will do the samething in order just to be like that person on the television.

I've also, known some "instructors" That have taught kumite,Rather then teaching selfdefense, The reason for that's b/c his/her instructor did'nt self defense either.
It could also be,That some instructors are just too lazy to instruct the students,What should've been taught b/c the studnts are dictating what should be taught.
Which is part of the problem,The Instructor gives in b/c the children will have fun,& Yet that's when false confidence takes over.

So,The answer to the original question is yes,Sport is degrading karate.
_________________________
http://www.hotforwords.com

Top
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Fight Videos
Night club fight footage and street fights captured with the world's first bouncer spy cam

How to Matrix!
Learn ten times faster with new training method. Learn entire arts for as little as $10 per disk.

Self Defense
Stun guns, pepper spray, Mace and self defense products. Alarms for personal and home use.

TASER MC26C
Stop An Urban Gorilla: Get 2 FREE TASER M26C Replacement Air Cartridges With Each New TASER M26C!

 

Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga