actually (and correct me if the year is off a bit) the term karate was agreed upon in the 1930's, and sport karate came about not soon after. Itosu would have been dead. In fact ive read that funakoshi stopped goin to certain dojos that only engaged in sparring because he felt it degraded the art and went against the purpose of the art.im no historian either so someone plz correct me if i am wrong

There is some thruth in what you say nenipp. But after WWII Okinawa lost its grip on what was happening in Japan. Under European initiatif during the 60 - 70, a world sport karate organisation was set up with mainly JKA influence (WUKO). The development in Europe in the 80 was much sport oriented. Towards the mid 90
there came a movement towards traditional training and historic research of the origin of karate. This now results in a differentiation as sport or traditional karate training. So the traditionalists grasp back to 'older' values and do much research in Okinawan traditions but even then it is difficult to grasp the 'true' teachings. I think it is important to keep evolving with society to give it 'added value'. As such, sport is a great tool to contribute to society. But in reflection of the evolution, it is good to look back into the past. As such the traditionalist movement is good too. The goals to be achieved in the 19th century are no longer the goals for the 21th century and training adapts as such. Sport is a part of this evolution but in my opinion not a degrading factor.

How does the sporting aspect of karate degrade the art of karate. nobody says that sport karate is the same as karate jutsu, although i can tell you fromfirst hand experience that receiving a punc from Engalnd internationals is not a pleasant experience. i can also state with first and experience that the 1990's Northern ireland WUKO (WKF) team spent the majority of time doig kihon and kata, yet they were highly trained, motivated and talented sportsmen.

i think often that people confuse their club tournaments with what is happeing at European/world level. In WKF events they are now expected to demonstrate bunkai of the kata, now as i am positive each national federation has acces to top quality kata experts i would say that the sport is actually helping to maintain the art.

I see nothing wrong at all with sport karate, as long as its taught as sport and not sd or combatives. It is not self-defense, it is based on a set of rules and methods that work for scoring points and getting trophies/medals not ending violence. When a sport technique is taught in a combative manner and the student dont know the difference, that can and will get you possiably killed in a violent situation. I see a huge absolutely major difference in karate jutsu and sport methods. Ones for earning points and winning matches with set rules and techs, the others for flat out disabling or killing a violent attacker to protect yourself. However you'd be really surprised at how many people think the sport side is the jutsu side. I've seen many top sport karate ka do kata and not know anything about them, nor be able to use any of the methods in them. I dont have a problem with sports, but I do feel sometimes that the sport side is killing the jutsu in karate.

You know, as an outsider to karate, I can safely say that the reason people think of karate as innefective is generally due to the LACK of sparring and hard contact sport.

Hedgehogey,

Normally I would agree with you, however one has to then decide what is sport karate. I am not talking about point tournaments only here. Harder competitions would be the Kyokushin tournaments...No face punches, but full contact everywhere else and no pads. The Sabaki Challenge...same as Kyokushin, but now you add throws. Sometimes there are nasty knockouts that are pretty fun to watch. Also, the K-1 Grand Prixs get their thumps going as catering to kick boxers, however their tournament is under Seido Karate and Isshi who was a former Ashihara Karate Branch Manager. Many of the K-1 Grand Prix guys were former Kyokushin players that switched over to Ishii, including Andy Hug. They were respectable Karateka.

If you consider these sporting tournaments as encompassing Karate, then there are some good hard knocks available.

Just some thoughts.

-B

Is sport degrading karate?
YES
Karate is NOT a sport. The karate that is practiced like a sport is not karate. After WWII karate was lamentably "mixed" with the American culture... that's why many people thinks that karate is synonymous of "fight", "kick ass", "sport" and stuff.
Karate is not brake bricks!. So sorry, but karate is JAPANESE not AMERICAN, so if anyone thinks that karate is a sport because he say so, or his sensei say so, WRONG, you are not doing the real karate.

Karate is not japanese.

ups
karate Shotokan/Shotokai is japanese. Master Gichin Funakoshi begint it in Tokyo, Japan.
[image]http://www.shotokai.cl/imagenes/historicas/osensei.jpg[/image]