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#140806 - 05/09/05 04:47 AM Same style different teachings
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Have you ever visited other dojo's that teach the same style but are polar opposites? Funny how people have such an influence over a style that pretty soon it's not really that style.
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#140807 - 05/09/05 06:06 AM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
I wouldn't say polar opposites, but I've had the chance to practice with some other students of AKK, and there are differences in what they teach. My instructor and Mr. Chuck Epperson, for instance, have a similar style of teaching, full 16 techniques per belt and with increasing contact, whereas Mr. Scott Halsey skims a little off of the colored belt ranks, and gets to the jist of things starting at brown belt.

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#140808 - 05/09/05 10:14 AM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Sanchin

It what I consider one of the real strengths of karate--that it has so many different variations.

Back in the day karate training was a very individualized thing, the teachers adapted the training to fit the needs of the students.
Perhaps a really big strong guy would be taught in a manner to improve his speed, agility and overall quickness.
While a smaller, fast guy would be trained to develop his physical strength and power.

Or perhaps his teacher would choose to focus on their strengths--so a guy that was already big and strong would train to get even bigger and stronger.

Either way the upshot is that 5 guys training under the same teacher would produce 5 guys with 5 different interpratations of kata/tech etc.
All of them are of the same "style" just different intreprataions.

The "box" that contains the range of "acceptable" karate technique is pretty large.

Like i said before, I see it as one of karates greatest strengths--its when evryone starts looking the same that karate starts to lose.
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#140809 - 05/09/05 11:59 AM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
This is well expressed in the Japanese concept of "Hacho": deliberate asymmetry (Lowry, 100). It exists in all Japanese culture, from budo to woodworking. It refers to an intentional informality, amidst all of the formality and attention to detail, to allow personal expression to flourish.

Applying karate to one's own physical being naturally results in a unique and personal way of doing things. The uniqueness is usually subtle, from the slight shift in weight during a body movements, to the hand position in tora guchi, to the path of motion during a shuto uchi. This natural process of individualization must not be supressed for the sake of maintaining consistency within the Ryu, but it must also not be forced or abused. When one adds, removes, or drastically changes movements of a kata and upsets its essence or changes fundamental teachings of the Ryu, it is not Hacho.

This is also well expressed in Shuhari. For those who aren't familiar with the concept: Shu-to learn from the tradition. Ha-to break the chains of tradition. Ri-to transcend the tradition. But again, it is a natural process. If one has not yet absorbed the full tradition of the Ryu, how can that one decide what is the right or wrong way of doing things? That is why the tradition of a Ryu is set forth, to allow those who follow it to learn from the successful experience of its founder, become one with it, and transcend it. It is so we aren't all just floating around in the void, but have something tangible to hold on to in our path. Shuhari: eat your heart out, Bruce!

One more thing to remember: any given Ryu was set forth as a result of a single person's own experience and interpretation of the art. Ryu were not divinely inspired. They resulted from a teacher spreading his personal method of karate to a group of students, who in turn spread it further. The founder's of the various Ryu understood Hacho and Shuhari, and wanted their students in the generations to come to preserve, as well as further their art. It is a fine line to walk, but provides us with a lilfelone journey to enjoy.
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#140810 - 05/09/05 03:30 PM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Not polar, but different. I belong to a loose-knit organiztaion of Okinawa Kenpo schools. Each school is different in terms of focus (one is more about kickboxing, one more SD oriented, another more sport, but we all have the same base roots and customs. It can weird when you are used to training at one school and then stop by another one because we are all one big, happy style. LOL
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#140811 - 05/13/05 02:09 PM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
I teach different then my Instructor and he slightly different then his Instructor, is this total opposite or is it growth? Each student will be taken a different way and end up with a different reality based on his experience and the time period being taught. Alot of the things I endured during training the present student would quit or file charges on you. In my day to get a busted lip or black eye from your senior or Instructor was considered an honor because there were not many choices in town and they all gave the same bruises.

Some instructors stress one way or another, some stress style Supremacy, some street applications, some Sport Competition, and some Internal fitness. I try to teach a total evolving system based on truth. The way can be opposite as long as the end result is the same. But I have seen system where the name was the same but the results were totally different, weak students either in moral ethics or techniques.

I've seen some system that train very differently but end results are the same, Kata stressed but strong fighters and Fighting system but with strong kata, and one system with no Kata just bunkia, all from the same Grand Master. This is an example there is far more to teach then just these 2 basic elements.


Edited by Neko456 (05/13/05 02:16 PM)
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#140812 - 05/26/05 07:29 PM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: Neko456]
IsshinRyuStudent Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 10
Chotku Kyan and Choki Motobu both studied Shuri Te and their individual Karate couldn't have been more different. People modify or focus on different techniques to take advantage of their body types, techniques that they have used in combat, or
don't use certain techniques that they just don't care for. Even the Okinawan Karate masters did this.
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#140813 - 05/26/05 07:54 PM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: IsshinRyuStudent]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
Chotku Kyan and Choki Motobu both studied Shuri Te and their individual Karate couldn't have been more different. People modify or focus on different techniques to take advantage of their body types, techniques that they have used in combat, or
don't use certain techniques that they just don't care for. Even the Okinawan Karate masters did this.


I totally agree with this, however the nearest constant we have is kata, the interpretation can vary dramatically - as it should!

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#140814 - 05/26/05 08:14 PM Re: Same style different teachings [Re: SANCHIN31]
KiDoHae Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 999
Quote:

Have you ever visited other dojo's that teach the same style but are polar opposites? Funny how people have such an influence over a style that pretty soon it's not really that style.




Sanchin, I'd say your observation is true of people learning the same thing, from the same teacher, in the same dojo! After all, at the end of the day it is a very personal experience isn't it?

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