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#140304 - 05/08/05 05:41 PM Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist?
Kataman23 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 81
Loc: Honolulu, Hawaii
What are the advantages of both? Is one scientifically proven to provide more power?
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#140305 - 05/11/05 02:22 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Kataman23]
myself Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 6
i train using both, just in different situations e.g. horizontal for long range boxing, vertical for infighting/trapping etc. i is my understanding that if you punch out for about 3/4 of the way with a vertical fist and then snap it into a horizontal fist at the end to create a whip effect. it is harder to see the punch coming if it is vertical so this gives you a quick and relatively safe initiation. twisting your fist gives you angular momentum/kinetic energy as well as the linear momentum/kinetic energy provided from the vertical starting position. so to cut a long story short, i believe horizontal gives you more power. i may of course be incorrect.

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#140306 - 05/17/05 03:00 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: myself]
Cord Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
The theory is that you use whichever will give greatest contact with the target. eg. a verticle fist is useless if punching the throat- it wont get there.

I like verticle for strikes to the face, you cant really pick small targets on the face accurately so with verticle fist you stand a better chance of getting something usefull (nose,chin etc).
As for power,it comes from your legs and torso so the position of your hand has little bearing on the power of your punch.
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#140307 - 05/17/05 07:25 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Cord]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
I tend to prefer horizontal fists. More often than not in real fights, both people are trading. From that stand-point, horizontal punches offer more defensive protection as your elbow and shoulder rotates to hide your chin. Vertical punching leaves your elbows down and thus leave your face wide open. Thats ok providing that you're not being swung at. That's the not the reality that I've seen however.

Accuracy in punching is just a matter of having developed it through training. With practice it becomes pretty easy to land those blows right on target.

Horizontal fists also have more power as it's easier to get your weight transference behind them - particularly when throwing combinations.


-John

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#140308 - 05/17/05 08:24 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: JKogas]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
JKogas -

I see your point about the elbow position re: horizontal punches, but I have not noticed a big power difference between those and verticals.

I use a lot of vertical punches, even on hooks, etc.
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#140309 - 05/17/05 02:56 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: MattJ]
Talimas Offline
Member

Registered: 02/03/05
Posts: 131
Loc: Cleveland, Ohio
Your punches loose power when you allow your elbows to come up to the sides. If you are twisting your hips and pushing off your rear leg to throw and punch, why split that force and momentum into 2 directions. Out for the elbow and forward for the fist? Let your elbow follow your hand to the target both keeping the full force and momentum as well as concealing your technique as much as you can.

As to the actual difference between horizontal and vertical punches the whip at the end of a horizontal punch will add additional power but nothing to make or break the technique.
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#140310 - 05/17/05 07:03 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Talimas]
DBZInspired Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/16/05
Posts: 10
Loc: United States, Georgia, Atlant...
Just one thing I want to point out you can chang your fist from verticle to horisontal without moving your elbow, cause its all in the wrists.

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#140311 - 05/17/05 08:36 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Kataman23]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Years ago when I read the Dillman method of pressure point fighting - he mentioned that the position of greatest power in a forward fist strike is ( palm down ) about 45 degrees. Besides being a great angle to get into the solar plex and many other targets it also aligned the bones in the forearm for better ability to add your complete body behind it without stressing the bones.

I decided he was correct when I experimented with the angles on my heavy bag and punch board.

Don't forget the palm and hammer hand strikes. These can be done harder than anything else if you have the room to use it - like side or top of head shots.

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#140312 - 05/20/05 07:34 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Diga]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
Burton Richardson told me that they use the vertical fist but at the last minute of impact they turn the fist to make like a screw or twisting effect that does more damage. I have found through my own experiences that it does do more damage but it lacks the retracting speed to reload and counter so you will have to adjust it to your own situations.
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#140313 - 05/23/05 12:09 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Rumble]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
I use a horixontal punch with my cross and jab, or baoxing blast, if you will. On a hook Im comffortable with a vertical fist and in a power punch like a straight right i tend to use a forty five degree angle
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#140314 - 06/07/05 10:29 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Chen Zen]
martialway Offline
Member

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 83
Loc: nj
well i think in general the horizontal fist requires you to turn you r hand from the on guard position, creating torque and bunching up the skin , and the verticle fist is exceptional for hooks, becaust all 4 knucks can land on the chin.

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#140315 - 06/08/05 06:27 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: martialway]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Firstly you cannot chain punch with horizontal fists. And if someone can land 3-4 solid punches a second with a vertical fist then I would say tha vertical is the way to go. However the horizontal may be more powerfull due to the twisting torque (a theory which has not been proven to me and to which i remain dubious), and i like using a horizontal for hitting to the ribs, you get a more wide area of rib and you can push it up with your knuckles, which is a killer!

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#140316 - 06/23/05 04:35 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: MAGr]
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
It varies with the technique. If I'm using a boxing hook, of course my fist will be vertical, because that is the technique. But something like a karate punch from the horse stance, something I don't practice, would include a horizontal fist. Wing Chun's chain punching techniques using vertical fists are very effective, as well as the "Boxing Blast", comparable to the straight blast, but with modifications.

It all relates very scientifically, The Tao Of Jeet Kune Do is a great book to read defining scientific approaches and influences in the martial arts.


Edited by Chang Wufei (06/23/05 04:37 AM)
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#140317 - 09/02/05 09:58 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Kataman23]
64445 Offline
Newbie

Registered: 09/02/05
Posts: 10
according to william cheung, the vertical fist is much faster and less telegraphed.

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#140318 - 09/13/05 01:39 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: 64445]
RyanKnight Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/06/05
Posts: 6
I've heard that there is a greater chance of breaking your wrist if you punch with horizantally

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#140319 - 09/13/05 11:23 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: RyanKnight]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA
If I may Chime in I believe that the verticle fist may be faster and of better uses closer but the horozital fist can be delivered with more power from regular punching range, I use the veritcle fist if I need to strike at quarter distance range, the palm up strike if closer, and the horozital fist if to go over or around and in between the chin and trecha (really I use a fore knuckle/leapord paw strike for that).

Some people believe that the horozital fist is more prone to having the elbow snapped/slapped during the strike, because the elbow turns over to the side.
Goju practitioners teach to retract/bend the elbow after fully extending the punch because of this counter against the elbow.
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#140320 - 09/14/05 12:50 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Neko456]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
I'll keep this post short and sweet. I use both. I think if i jab it's gonna be verticl but if i cross or hook it's gonna be more of a horizontal fist.

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#140321 - 09/14/05 06:12 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: etaks86]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
Quote:

I think if i jab it's gonna be verticl but if i cross or hook it's gonna be more of a horizontal fist.




I think you are mixing up horizontal and vertical

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#140322 - 09/17/05 05:38 AM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: MAGr]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
I find the sensation different both. With the vertical fist I find the impact to be blunt and more of a thudding force, very deep and dull. With the horizontal fist I find the impact very sharp, cracking and cutting sensation.

A friend of mine and former Kempo instructor was also a very experienced Wing Chun practitioner. He described the difference between the two styles of punching as the wing chun being like a machine gun and the karate being like a rifle. Both different in their approach, but equally deadly.

Gav
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#140323 - 09/20/05 10:44 PM Re: Horizontal Fist Or Verticl Fist? [Re: Gavin]
h3kk Offline
Stranger

Registered: 04/01/05
Posts: 4
Loc: canada
dependin on the situation...
vertical fist is used more for speed and the true power comes from the speed that comes from your vertical punch.
horiziontal fist is basically for power attacks.

i say...in a real situation of combat, vertical fists would be the best. i say this is becuz of speed, combat is all about speed. On the other hand, if your opponent leaves open gaps and is slow, go for horizontal fists, it puts more impact into it, but the attack would not be as rapid as consecutive vertical fist attacks. Therefore, my point being, vertical go for speed, horizontal go for power.
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