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#140072 - 05/08/05 02:09 AM Blocks
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Do you believe that blocks are actually blocks hitting arm to arm,leg,or object? Or, Do you have deeper applications for them?
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#140073 - 05/08/05 02:18 AM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
butterfly Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/25/04
Posts: 3012
Loc: Torrance, CA
Sanchin,
Blocks, to me, have different meanings depending on the application that I wish them to have (I am talking idealized situations here). In the style of karate that I am most conversant in, blocks are mostly used as hard parries to control the opponent.

Generally, I am talking about blocks being used to put the opponenent where I want him for my benefit in throwing a counter.

Therefore, I would use a block to either continue my opponent's momentum so he is overbalanced and in a weaker position so that I can counter; or I would stop his momentum in order for myself to move to a better position to counter.

In this context, I am either moving to a better position for my attack, or moving the oppoent to a weaker postion. In each case the equal sign is the orientation of myself to my opponent, and the way to do this is through blocks and body movement.

-B

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#140074 - 05/08/05 04:13 AM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
This is how I progressed as far as blocks. In the beginning they were just taken at face value and were to be used against weaker attackers and were to recoil and do damage. When I became more of a intermediate student, they were methods to redirect a attacker and throw them off balance. Now I still move like its a parry but also use them as limb destructions like I did in the beginning only now I am able to target specific areas easier and do way more damage with them. I dislike blocks however, I prefer redirection or interception.

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#140075 - 05/08/05 04:19 AM Re: Blocks [Re: AgenT]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Redirection and parrying can be one application for blocks,but what about grappling and joint manipulation? Push / pull actions? When addressing a block you also have to address the chamber hand.
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#140076 - 05/08/05 04:33 AM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
You brought up a good point Sanchin, and a really overlooked one. I've found several joint locks, and since grappling is big in karate, I've found good methods relating to that as well. Jodan uke and shuto uki are among the blocks I turn into traps and grappling, and along with a chamber a jodan uki can be verrrry painful. It still surprises me how most overlook chambering methods and hikite. Which was alway basic beginner info to me, and adds a whole new flavor to even beginner kata.

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#140077 - 05/08/05 09:56 AM Re: Blocks [Re: AgenT]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
I dont believe most of the techniques we were told were blocks are blocks. I dont believe one has to be taught to block. You throw a ball at someones face they will natually bring their arms up to deflect it. Its reflex(for some).
I have had much more success using these"blocks" as joint manipulation, nerve strikes, throws, and chokes. ex: look at the so called reinforced Ude Uke.(outside block with the other arm supposedly supporting it for extra strength) I prefer to look at that technique as a lapel choke. Any good judoka will see it immediately. Look at heian Nidan, we have a part with a reinforced ude uke followed by a turn into a downblock. If you look at this technique as a choke, the turn downblock becomes a fantastic throw.
Yes i will admit that i was given the stories about how all block are blocks and all strikes are strikes at the beggining of my training. But now as i teach, i try to shed some light on this misconception.
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#140078 - 05/08/05 11:07 AM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
A 'block' by definition is prevention of an attack from hitting you by using another part of your body.

If it does not perform this function, it is not a block.

If you are grappling, then you are grappling, not blocking.
If you avoid an attack by moving out of the way, that isn't a block.

but...
The same motion you make to perform a block, can be interpreted different ways. The motion of an upper block seen in beginner kata, can be easily and effectively interpreted as a strike to under the chin. The same position that an upper block ends up in, could be abstacted to coincide with an ending position of grappling technique.

it's limited to the immagination. some have more immagination that others.

I like to keep things simple, because I lack the immagination and skill to do otherwise.

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#140079 - 05/08/05 02:22 PM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
...and that's the beauty of the arts we study. The so-called block has so many implications & uses because the body mechanics were developed & perfected centuries ago. Many people who don't understand believe bunkai is simplay "reverse engineering" or assigning meaning where there was none. Kata detractors continue to be WRONG. Blocks are like a Swiss Army knife, the tool can be used for any applicable purpose. Of course it cant be used to remove a spark plug because that purpose wasn't built into the tool. So it is w/ blocks - block, strike, joint manipulation, nerve attack - it's all good.

Owari

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#140080 - 05/09/05 05:16 PM Re: Blocks [Re: hedkikr]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
Yes it's all good.
Among the uke-waza, the one I most frequently use as a block is shutouke, which is very good against "usual attacks" (if there is such a thing)

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#140081 - 05/09/05 06:01 PM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
Ironfoot Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/10/04
Posts: 2682
Loc: St. Clair Shores, MI USA
Quote:

Redirection and parrying can be one application for blocks,but what about grappling and joint manipulation? Push / pull actions? When addressing a block you also have to address the chamber hand.




To me, it's all the same! Either way, I put the opponent in a position where he won't hurt me, whether he's off-balance and about to be hit OR locked up and being talked to.
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#140082 - 05/09/05 11:09 PM Re: Blocks [Re: Ironfoot]
Cobra_nVidia Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11
I would like to hear some of the applications of the basic blocks in more detail please

I highly doubt the original purpose of these techniques was to block. I also doubt they were called "Uke waza" in Ryukyu

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#140083 - 05/09/05 11:16 PM Re: Blocks [Re: Cobra_nVidia]
eyrie Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
If you look at the word "uke" (in kanji), it means "to receive". That doesn't sound at all like "blocking" does it?

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#140084 - 05/10/05 12:36 AM Re: Blocks [Re: Cobra_nVidia]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Sure. Let's start with the rising block.

bunkai: attacker grabs wrist(could be shirt,etc..)while turning his wrist inward and grabbing(chamber)the other hand crosses under his arm behind his elbow.Then in the same motion pulling down with chamber and pushing upward while turning your wrist and dropping into your lowered stance. Assailants arm is either brokrn or dislocated.
Your turn.
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#140085 - 05/10/05 08:10 AM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
Bushi_no_ki Offline
Veteran

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1667
Loc: POM, Monterey CA
We have a saying in AKK, A block is a strike and a strike is a block. I can use the same hammerfist inward block as a strike to an available target, whereas I am also taught how to apply elbows as a form of block.

There is also another meaning to that. When someone attacks me, as I defend, I also want to attack in the same move. That means if someone punches at me, when I block, I am trying to break his arm (maybe not literally) as I prevent it from reaching me. I am attacking his arm as it is coming at me.

We'll just say that most nights I leave the dojo with a few bruises on my arms.

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#140086 - 05/10/05 09:27 AM Re: Blocks [Re: Cobra_nVidia]
Chatan1979 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/21/05
Posts: 338
Loc: Mahomet , Illinois
Quote:

I would like to hear some of the applications of the basic blocks in more detail please

I highly doubt the original purpose of these techniques was to block. I also doubt they were called "Uke waza" in Ryukyu



see my previous post for an application of the reinforced ude uke.
I also like to look at morote shuto uke as many things. One application i like is to see it as another lapel choke. If you do the technique with one hand extended out and the other chambered by the ear, then you can try this.

The extended arm grabs the lapel chest level. The other striking hand slips under the collar (palm up)and grips the lapel(obviously the opposite lapel.). so you hands should be crossing each other with the hand that was chamberd on top across the neck and the other hand underneath. The top hand should tighten and slightly press into the neck while the other hand pulls down sharply on the lapel. This should happen simultaneously.
Difficult to explain in text sorry. If i had a way to post a pic i would. But anyone with judo experience might be able to better explain.
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#140087 - 05/10/05 05:02 PM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
Petjut84 Offline
Member

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 102
Blocks can be used to redirect or to hurt or to set up the next technique. In silat we have 10 blocks for the inside gate of the opponent and 10 other ones on the outside. You learn which specifically flow into different techniques and some destroy the limbs but later on it becomes like a big circel and you can transition from anywhere.

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#140088 - 05/17/05 08:09 AM Re: Blocks [Re: Petjut84]
ken harding Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 721
Loc: UK
Chaps I prefer to think of Uke meaning receieve - ukemi "receives" technique from his master.
Block always implies hammering arms together and as a Wado practitioner that's not how I see them at all. They are a way of receiving/taking the opponents strength so that you can do something with it - which usually damages said opponent.
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Heijo Shin

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#140089 - 05/17/05 11:46 AM Re: Blocks [Re: Cobra_nVidia]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Hi all this is now my second post....So I just like to say hello to all!

One application of a rising block/strike that we refer to a Jodan Uke is to strike at the multiple nerve points into the side of the neck. An attacker may step through with a right straight, you slip to the inside using your left hand to pull the attackers punch off balance to your left. At the same time step forward on the right foot and drive a right handed Jodan Uke up to the points in the side of the neck (The Acupoint Stomach-9 is a great target for this shot).

Hope that made sense!
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www.SHIKON.COM
Follow me on twitter @taichigav

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#140090 - 05/19/05 04:33 AM Re: Blocks [Re: Gavin]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Welcome to the forums Gavin.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#140091 - 05/19/05 05:25 PM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
dbsplinter Offline
Stranger

Registered: 05/18/05
Posts: 3
Loc: Essex "England"
Gavins second post!!!
Well here`s my second post:
I believe in the maxim "when is a block not a block? when its a strike."
As for positioning of your self or your opponent, this all comes under tai sabaki.
There are only so many movements the body can make, so to indentify a movement and lable it depends on the situation you are in.
I know what i mean but putting it in print isn`t that easy is it.
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#140092 - 05/19/05 06:35 PM Re: Blocks [Re: SANCHIN31]
shoshinkan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/10/05
Posts: 2662
Loc: UK
evade,redirect/cover with your non 'blocking' hand and strike with the 'block' this also gains you a beat of time as you are making use of both hands.

obviously if you are caught flat footed or dont react quickly enough then double bone 'strike' to the limb is usefull but not prefered IMO.

and yep there are lots of deeper applications mainly involving nasty locks/breaks and takedowns that are 'blocks' however these usually follow a couple of strikes and good position/grabbing etc etc

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#140093 - 05/20/05 07:41 AM Re: Blocks [Re: dbsplinter]
Gavin Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2267
Loc: Southend, Essex, UK
Ha dbsplinter, forth post!!!!

I completely agree dbsplinter. A block being used as an offensive/defensive technique is completely dependant upon the application from which it is used. We can use our "block" to destroy an opponents limb when they punch or kick us....is that now a block or a strike? I personally do not really use what are generally regarded as blocks to "block", to I use parrying to evade attacks. I use "blocks" to strike at the body, the angles and directions in which they are delivered just seem to slot so well into the little nocks and crannies of the body. At the end of the day though its dependant on the situation/application/purpose. I'd never not use a "block" to block, I'd just utilize it as a mutlipurpose tool in the same ways as I do with all my other techniques.

We teach some really nice applications of "blocks" that I'm hoping to get on our website soon. Is it permitted to post stuff like that in the forums?
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www.SHIKON.COM
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