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#139678 - 05/07/05 08:31 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Orchidweb Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 18
I find that as complex and interesting as my shihokosukun is, the heiyan/pinans are what should really be practiced. The more advanced I get, the more I turn back to perfecting my basics.

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#139679 - 05/08/05 12:44 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

I understand the points in the article, that is his inference based on a quote that might have been translated for him. I haven't seen the actual quote in it's original Japanese, so I'm not willing to split hairs.
...use common sense: (keep in mind we are in 2005, not 1905)

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"

doesn't really answer the question does it? I could be wrong. Maybe we should all start listing our katas instead of our ryuha.




Perhaps we should, if this WAS 1905, would you argue with itosu, motobu, etc.. etc.. that katas are NOT styles ? Give me a break.

You can ignore me all ya want, im not into bashing people.. just good debate, we all have different views but when my view is the same as the likes of the "great" masters, im going to keep my view until someone else can prove me wrong and I highly doubt it is going to be you with your narrow mindedness. (no offense, its so easy for things on a message board with text to be taken offensively.. I DO NOT say things with that intention )

Im being very sincere when I say this, there is no reason for the emotional energy of this subject to carry into other discussions.. let bygones be bygones.

Sorry guys, I edit my posts too much.. its only because literally minutes later I want to add something but without cluttering the thread with other post, please forgive me...

I take your point of me "posting as knowing more than I do" .. some things I say may conjure up that thought in your mind , thats fine. The reality is I DO KNOW what I know, I dont claim to know something i dont know there is a huge difference. And about the ryuha thing, well that just means school or system not a style, if everyone went around saying I practice "William T. Wiley Middle Style Math" and "Syracuse University English Style" anytime someone asks what education level they are then we would have alot of controversy going around wouldnt we ?


Edited by Sanchin (05/08/05 01:06 AM)

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#139680 - 05/08/05 02:29 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin,

when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.

You presume a lot. I can show you techniques from each kata in Goju-ryu that you have not learned as a basic except from sanchin - gekisai serie and maybe tensho.
About your tiger thing, I have heard one regarding Higashiaonna after observing or either participating in a fight to the death : When 2 tigers fight one will die and the other will be severely injured.

You state that you train somewhat like the old ways, learning kata from different masters. You have read the Motobu book very well, he uses the same analogy (talking about styles of karate referring to kata). Do you, like Motobu, also focus on partner drills ? Have you experienced knowledge in ti techniques ?

Beginners kata. They introduce you into karate in a logical way. In Goju they are the gekisai series and were designed to introduce youngsters into Goju before sanchin practise. Sanchin was considered not appropriate training for youngsters although Miyagi must have been introduced to it at age 14. Because it is beginner does not mean it is easy it just means it is a good way to begin.

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#139681 - 05/08/05 02:41 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
ok. I'm glad to hear this is debate and not personal... despite my written tone, I am not reguarded as a negative person. I am blunt and sarcastic, I guess that could be interpreted as narrow-mindedness. I do admit when I'm wrong, and I try to learn from mistakes...so when you see evidence of that you'll realize I'm not as tunnel-visioned as you now think.

debate
We are splitting hairs, and I don't dwell in the past...I learn about the past and move on. so, ok if it was 100 years ago, you win. if we are in 2005, I win. lol I'm not going to ignore what has happened to karate since its induction to Japan...hey if it never made it to Japan, you wouldn't even be squabbling over the term 'Ryu'. which by the way, kindof makes sense why 100 yrs ago they were thinking of kata as styles within the system, right? After all, 'kata' could mean 'style' or 'form' or 'shape' in Japanese.

ryuha:
who said I was equating ryu to style?
read what I wrote again. since katas vary even between RYU, my wiseass comment implies this exchange:

In a normal conversation between two karateka living in a present day english speaking country, this sounds more natural...
Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu"

why? because some things are implied in the question.

vs. this exchange:

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"
Q: "oh really, which book are you learning that kata from?"
A: "well, I learned it when I was 6 and I've retained all of the essental techniques from this kata to encompass a complete fighting system."
Q: "I see."

here's the test..ready?
The Q person walks away thinking...

a) wow, that guy shares the views of great masters.
{checks watch to what century it is}

b) I'd like to see him spar in horse-stance.

c) I wonder which style of Naihanchi.

get it?

WWWhhfffUUMMMPP...book closed.

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#139682 - 05/08/05 02:45 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
LOL @ Kintama!!!
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#139683 - 05/08/05 03:33 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,

when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.

You presume a lot. I can show you techniques from each kata in Goju-ryu that you have not learned as a basic except from sanchin - gekisai serie and maybe tensho.
About your tiger thing, I have heard one regarding Higashiaonna after observing or either participating in a fight to the death : When 2 tigers fight one will die and the other will be severely injured.

You state that you train somewhat like the old ways, learning kata from different masters. You have read the Motobu book very well, he uses the same analogy (talking about styles of karate referring to kata). Do you, like Motobu, also focus on partner drills ? Have you experienced knowledge in ti techniques ?

Beginners kata. They introduce you into karate in a logical way. In Goju they are the gekisai series and were designed to introduce youngsters into Goju before sanchin practise. Sanchin was considered not appropriate training for youngsters although Miyagi must have been introduced to it at age 14. Because it is beginner does not mean it is easy it just means it is a good way to begin.




Indeed, motobu is a huge influence on my karate interpretation. If you would be so kind as to show me these techniques then please do, I would appreciate that.. in the end, it will still either be a simple varation or combination of various basics and variations. Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more when I stated that, sorry.

Kin, not all of us know as much as you and couldnt possibly be as good as you I suppose, so I guess I better stop practicing the 1905 way and join 2005 ? .. Your starting to sound like bullshido.net .
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139684 - 05/08/05 03:50 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I suck at karate. but I keep doing it because I don't take myself too seriously.

I was joking with you Sanchin..well, ok it was at your expense, my bad.

Sanchin, you seem like you are one of the good guys in karate...I have nothing against you...seriously.

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#139685 - 05/08/05 06:28 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Sanchin,

Regardless of what you think about styles when you tell someone you do the style Sanchin you will really confuse someone with basic knowledge of martial arts and you will repeatedly have to explain yourself to other martial artist who will think you're crazy.
Katas aren't considered styles anymore by anyone I've ever met,well,besides you.
This has no bearing on what you know or it's effectiveness.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#139686 - 05/08/05 10:46 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,

Regardless of what you think about styles when you tell someone you do the style Sanchin you will really confuse someone with basic knowledge of martial arts and you will repeatedly have to explain yourself to other martial artist who will think you're crazy.
Katas aren't considered styles anymore by anyone I've ever met,well,besides you.
This has no bearing on what you know or it's effectiveness.




Indeed, but how else am I supposed to tell someone what "style" I practice, if I no longer conform to what people have created as "styles" ? I dont practice anything like "shorin ryu" or "goju ryu" etc.. etc.. I practice realistic applications from the katas I(any many others) preach as "complete styles", this is what my "style" is.

Perhaps the reason the majority of people never feel "complete" in their training, and are always looking for an answer somewhere else, is because of this changing view of katas as "part of a style" rather than the style itself.

While I was watching the new pope the other night, he made a comment that will stick with me forever. -- "Everything is already, and always be given." Keep this in mind, pick your favorite kata regardless of "beginner" or "advanced" labels, and ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.


Edited by Sanchin (05/08/05 10:49 PM)
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139687 - 05/09/05 12:13 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.




exactly. what you are doing is not new. next time someone asks your style, maybe answering "MMA" would make more sense. THEN you could say which forms are the basis for your fighting style. There was a guy on here before that had a name for his own style...he hand picked kata from here, technique from there, applied immagination and he came up with the "Raptor" style...apparently some of the basis was upon watching Jurasic Park.

what I can't understand is how someone can feel qualified to come up with a fighting system, when they haven't even become proficient in an established one yet. In my opinion if MA is not your full-time career, don't attempt to re-invent the wheel until you have a wheel to work with.

In any event, enjoy yourself.
_________________________
Boris the Irresistable Monstrosity.

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