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#139688 - 05/09/05 12:28 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I agree. You should become proficient in one style before trying to come up with your own even if it is based on a kata.
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#139689 - 05/09/05 06:52 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin,
Opening in saifa kata. Right fist is vertical high hiki-te
left fist is clenching the right fist (sometimes also interpreted as open hand against the vertical fist). Moving slightly out of direction in semi long stance then turning 90 degrees to the left into musubi dachi pulling the right fist down to the left accompanied by left fist. This movement has to my knowledge no name and is used to break free from a grasping hand / deflecting a punch / locking or inflicting trauma on elbow-joint of an incoming attack.

To further discuss your Motobu influence, do you incorporate ti into your applications of kata or do you stick to atemi-waza.

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#139690 - 05/09/05 11:53 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Quote:

ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.




exactly. what you are doing is not new. next time someone asks your style, maybe answering "MMA" would make more sense. THEN you could say which forms are the basis for your fighting style. There was a guy on here before that had a name for his own style...he hand picked kata from here, technique from there, applied immagination and he came up with the "Raptor" style...apparently some of the basis was upon watching Jurasic Park.

what I can't understand is how someone can feel qualified to come up with a fighting system, when they haven't even become proficient in an established one yet. In my opinion if MA is not your full-time career, don't attempt to re-invent the wheel until you have a wheel to work with.

In any event, enjoy yourself.




Im not going to argue the fact of creating your own martial art without ability and knowledge is foolish, but the fact still remains people made martial arts not the "almighty gods".

Also, I am proficient in several different "styles" of martial arts, TKD - 2 Styles(WTF, kang duk won), Wing Chun Kung Fu, and Combat Hapkido. Im 22, I started martial arts when I was around 6, I havent stopped since and I do it FULL TIME. I practice more hours a day than most people work jobs. I incorp. everything, ive never learned ti from anyone (im going to a chosei motobu seminar in july anyone in upstate/central NY wanna get together and work something out on going ?? ) My style isnt MMA, I dont believe in the term Mixed Martial Arts, this is just something people use because they dont understand one martial art enough to make a decent assessment on its completeness. You dont take yourself seriously , so why argue with someone who takes it deadly serious ?
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#139691 - 05/09/05 12:04 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,
Opening in saifa kata. Right fist is vertical high hiki-te
left fist is clenching the right fist (sometimes also interpreted as open hand against the vertical fist). Moving slightly out of direction in semi long stance then turning 90 degrees to the left into musubi dachi pulling the right fist down to the left accompanied by left fist. This movement has to my knowledge no name and is used to break free from a grasping hand / deflecting a punch / locking or inflicting trauma on elbow-joint of an incoming attack.

To further discuss your Motobu influence, do you incorporate ti into your applications of kata or do you stick to atemi-waza.




That is just a simple variation of tsuki : /, not to mention it is IN naihanchi kata.

http://www.freewebs.com/sanchin/nh.JPG
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139692 - 05/09/05 12:05 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Since we are now delving into the very nature of the phenomenon called a Ryu, and the transcendence of it, see the posts in the "same style different teachings" thread.


Edited by Alejandro (05/09/05 12:07 PM)
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In Budo, -Al

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#139693 - 05/09/05 02:51 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin, it is not a punch.
Kata will never start with offense, always defense anticipating an attack. The opening will redirect opponents attacking force evading direct contact and redirecting through quarter turn (footwork) supported by the handwork to break free or to put a lock on the elbow joint. A tsuki would have a linear traject regarding footwork not a circular. The fist also stays in contact with your body.
It is a pull not a punch and I have never seen it in trainig a basic technique.

In view of beginner kata, talking about goju-ryu, before WWII sequence would be sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho as base to understand goju-ryu. I am always told that if you practise sanchin regulary the other kata will be easier to perform. Because it is such a harsh kata to learn, gekisai kata was added. To contribute to the learning curve, others have added takyoku / fukyu / kihon kata. The core of the goju-ryu system is sanchin - seyunchin - sesan - tensho.

Sanchin, have fun at the Motobu siminar. Give an impression afterwards ?

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#139694 - 05/09/05 03:53 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Beginning Kata means just that, a place to begin oneís karate kata studies.

In the older days an instructor would decide where to start a new student. So far as we know, pre 1900 some instructors, which later covered under the Shorin name, began with Seisan or Naifanchi kata. Though the Naha (later Goju-Toon Ryu) groups were late comers to Okinawan in the 1890ís their beginning kata was Sanchin.

When a version of karate began to be taught in the school systems, simpler drilling forms were created. In time they became some of the basis for some Japanese and Okinawan groups beginner training.

Other beginning kata were explored for the same purpose. The Shotokan folks began to work simpler forms than the Pinan/Heian. In the mid 30ís Okinawa was a staging ground for several attempted new student kata. The Fyuguata Sho and Ni, the Geseki Sho and Ni, the tensho kata and a series of 10 beginning kata was commissioned, and documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate but never incorporated formally into one of the developing systems (though there is evidence they became advanced drills used in the Shotokan camp).

But strictly speaking, there is no universal answer to what the first kata must be for the various Okinawan systems. Believing the Pinan/Heian or the Naifhanchi are where beginners start is not correct for various systems of Okinawan training. Itís just their acceptance by some of the larger systems makes it easy to assume that is the case.

For example some groups continue to use Seisan as the beginning kata, following the older paradigm of kata training.

All kata used for beginners consist of real technique. On a structural level one kata is not more or less important because of the techniques used.

But the way kata study is most often incorporated into karate training is not one where every aspect of every movement studied is fully explained for the defensive applications.

Most often for many years kata studies are for movement dynamics, not application potential. The drilling of correct technique a pre-cursor to developing the skill to actually apply that technique.

This is complicated to explain because defining a kata technique is very layered, from the use of a large movement section or sections as one technique, to using fractals of those techniques.

Frequently instructors would teach simpler answers to simple attacks for newer students. This allowed them practice in fitting into an attack and responding in a manner their skills could address correctly.

Movement skill is not as simple as being able to perform the moves of a kata. Instead it involves correct use of alignment, breathing, movement, energy release, etc. and frequently takes years of specific development. Personally as a rule of thumb I would expect most students after about 10 years of study on a kata to have developed a modicum of movement skill with its movement.

Then were does application study come in, it depends on the instructor and the students capabilities.

The beginning kata applications are as much movement studies as they are the optimal application of those techniques. Very valuable movement studies, often teaching subtle skills of fitting into difficult attack angles, but are no more than an opening study.

Most frequently the study of kata application potential is customized by the instructor. At one level any technique can counter any attack, so it hardly matters where or what order applications are worked. More often they are at random, for there is no consistent answer that works.

Any movement may have dozens or hundreds of applications. To take one kata and pull apart each aspect to totally know its potential is unlikely, or is it a reasonable answer.

The only goal is to make oneís karate work, not to be an encyclopedia. The depth of study just allows one to keep learning and keep oneís mind fresh.

Thus the kata movement studies one begins study with may or may not be on the immediate horizon when advanced study begins. That more likely depends on oneís abilities.

Of course this is looking at karate from the older, individual perspective, when teaching was one on one and correct skill ability was the key to application training.

There is no single one answer to where beginners begin, or to where the study goes.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#139695 - 05/09/05 09:48 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin, it is not a punch.
Kata will never start with offense, always defense anticipating an attack. The opening will redirect opponents attacking force evading direct contact and redirecting through quarter turn (footwork) supported by the handwork to break free or to put a lock on the elbow joint. A tsuki would have a linear traject regarding footwork not a circular. The fist also stays in contact with your body.
It is a pull not a punch and I have never seen it in trainig a basic technique.

In view of beginner kata, talking about goju-ryu, before WWII sequence would be sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho as base to understand goju-ryu. I am always told that if you practise sanchin regulary the other kata will be easier to perform. Because it is such a harsh kata to learn, gekisai kata was added. To contribute to the learning curve, others have added takyoku / fukyu / kihon kata. The core of the goju-ryu system is sanchin - seyunchin - sesan - tensho.

Sanchin, have fun at the Motobu siminar. Give an impression afterwards ?




Didnt say it was a punch in application, but a variation of the punch used to create a new technique. Anyone who truly understands the bunkai of the tsuki can see this. And yea, im trying to get ahold of the guy taking care of the seminar.. when I do im gonna find out if I can video tape and take pictures. If I can take pictures I will post them way before video.. the video will need to be transfered from tape-cd-comp ... I have no idea how to do that yet. I just hope im allowed to do that. take care.
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139696 - 05/09/05 11:04 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but someone needs a geek, and I'm at your service.

"the video will need to be transfered from tape-cd-comp"

If you are only doing one video transfer, buying the software might not be worth it.
The software runs $100+
Places with that service charge about $10/hour of video to mpeg conversion. check yellow pages under 'video transfers'.

sorry...back to the thread. geek out.

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#139697 - 06/25/08 12:00 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6664
Loc: Amherst, MA
some call it 'necro-posting'. I prefer to call it 'archival review'

another bump for the newbies...any thoughts on 'beginner's kata'?

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