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#139668 - 05/07/05 03:59 AM Beginner kata?
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
kenposan brought up a good point I'd like to talk about.
There really are no beginner kata.Just because a kata is short and not fancy doesn't mean it doesn't have in depth techniques that advanced can't learn from.
Do you think short,easy to learn katas are beginner because they are that way?
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#139669 - 05/07/05 05:33 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
I dont know really, personnaly I think there are specific beginner kata. I mean you dont teach a beginning student kanku dai, Advanced students do begin to look at the most basic simple kata differently, but only often after years of training. I believe that short kata that use mostly basic movements, while not exactly beginner kata, are better suited to a beginners movement skills and overall physical condition. I dont believe all short kata are beginner such as seisan. I do regard fu ku gata ichi and geki sai dai ni as beginner kata. Think of it like this, if you had a problem with the movements of a longer more advanced kata, would there be any particular kata you'd fall back on to help you understand the longer one. For example you have a problem with kusanku and fall back on the pinans which are basic compared to kusanku and contain similar movements. Which kata would you fall back on to understand the pinans. Those kata would probably be the most basic beginner kata. Honestly though it depends on the student and style which is basic for them.


Edited by AgenT (05/07/05 05:37 AM)

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#139670 - 05/07/05 10:00 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I agree that there is always something to be gained from practicing any kata...but you have to remember there are kata (you know which ones) that was specifically designed for beginners...how deep in meaning and application do you think the kata designed for grade school kids goes? The emphasis on 'introductory kata' was on the calisthenic merit not so much application. picture white-belt school kids pairing up in one-step sparring...it's basic technique vs. basic defense right? I believe that was the intention behind these kata. some will argue.
Given an active imagination, I'm sure people could somehow turn an upper block into a takedown or grapling move...and they might be able to get something to work. Good for them, since the proof is in the success of the application. I don't pick apart the application of basic kata too much, I believe it confuses the original intention...which is practicing the basics of movement, coordination, step-punch/block timing, muscle memory retention, breathing, etc - these are all the most valuable things to have down cold before moving on to kata with practical bunkai.
I'm not criticising anyone for revisiting these kata and re-fitting an appication to them...I'm just saying the other kata keeps me busy enough as far as application analysis goes. I still practice basic kata religeously, but focus more on movement than application.

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#139671 - 05/07/05 12:28 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

I agree that there is always something to be gained from practicing any kata...but you have to remember there are kata (you know which ones) that was specifically designed for beginners...how deep in meaning and application do you think the kata designed for grade school kids goes? The emphasis on 'introductory kata' was on the calisthenic merit not so much application. picture white-belt school kids pairing up in one-step sparring...it's basic technique vs. basic defense right? I believe that was the intention behind these kata. some will argue.
Given an active imagination, I'm sure people could somehow turn an upper block into a takedown or grapling move...and they might be able to get something to work. Good for them, since the proof is in the success of the application. I don't pick apart the application of basic kata too much, I believe it confuses the original intention...which is practicing the basics of movement, coordination, step-punch/block timing, muscle memory retention, breathing, etc - these are all the most valuable things to have down cold before moving on to kata with practical bunkai.
I'm not criticising anyone for revisiting these kata and re-fitting an appication to them...I'm just saying the other kata keeps me busy enough as far as application analysis goes. I still practice basic kata religeously, but focus more on movement than application.




How about this, Naihanchi = beginner kata , Pinan = beginner kata ..
Naihanchi is thought of by many "masters" to be one of the "most deadly" katas for actual combat.

Pinan is well known now to have been a kata for "school children" but the school children didnt practice any practical bunkai, the plan was for them to teach the "real" bunkai upon reaching a more suitable age... the techniques are not different but it is the principles and viewpoint applied to those techniques that gives them the quality of "beginner" or "advanced" ... In all honesty, when I first started learning karate when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.
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#139672 - 05/07/05 01:00 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Alejandro Offline
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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
There are kata that seem advanced to the beginner, then become easy once the student learnes them. Then there are kata that seem easy only to the beginner, yet their true diffuculty and complexity can only be discovered by the more experienced student.

The kata in the latter category, in my experience, are Naihanchi and Sanchin. They both are relatively simple in movement, and students can "learn" them fairly quickly. As time passes, one discovers the intricacies of the movement and dynamics of the katas, and they essentially become harder. As it is said: "Shuri te begins and ends in naihanchi", or "Goju Ryu begins and ends in sanchin." In my personal training, naihanchi and sanchin receive the most of my time, and are the most difficult for me. The more they are practiced, the more I learn and discover, and in turn get tastes of what I will learn from them next, which keeps me practicing them day in and day out.

So to answer the original question, it depends on the practitioner. Taikyoku can become a "masters" kata if trained by a practitioner who has skilled body mechanics learned from other kata. But still, one can't deny the original purpose of such kata: as training tools to help the beginning student learn proper mechanics. So yes, there are "beginner" kata, but simplicity of movement has little to do with that. Obviously passai has more complicated movement than naihanchi, but it is not more advanced; same when comparing seipai to sanchin.
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#139673 - 05/07/05 01:03 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

"Naihanchi = beginner kata"




huh? where did you learn that? oh thats right, you were taught Naihanchi when you were 6.

read up on it more, here's as good a place as any to start: http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_deadly_kata.html

Pinan katas are a slightly different story than 'introductory' kata. The intro katas I was talking about (fukyugata,gekisai,taikyoku) were specifically designed for young learners when okinawan masters were tasked with incorporating karate into the Japanese curriculum... Pinan kata is thought to have come from segments of classic kata. there is controversy over the motivations Itosu had for doing this...but I'm sure you know more than the resident scholars on the subject...I'm listening.

by the way...can I ask what style(s) your experience is in?
since you have a blank profile and didn't answer any "what's your style" topics. or maybe I just missed it.

[edit] I just noticed you added to the "what styles" thread. Until you learn the difference between 'style' and 'kata', I have no reason to take you seriously. sorry, it's just that I think you are posting as knowing more than you actually do. I'm not being a snob, I'm starting to see what you are doing and I don't like it. It's my choice to contribute to your questions/understandings/thoughts so don't bother trying to bash me if I ignore you for a while.

take care.

p.s. your signature phrase is a bit off the mark...see here for the lesson: http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=384

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#139674 - 05/07/05 01:19 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I am well aware of naihanchi's "history", you dispute the fact that it was originally taught as a beginner kata? This is common knowledge among many naihanchi enthusiasts.

On the taikyoku, the techniques are not different.. there may be less techniques in the kata, but that doesnt mean the techniques have any less merit. Like I said before, it is the view and principles you apply to your kata that gives it the merit.. in reality because the original intention of something is different than what you are using it for doesnt mean it can not be used effectively in many other ways.
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"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139675 - 05/07/05 01:45 PM Re: Beginner kata [Re: Sanchin]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
http://www.freewebs.com/sanchin/stance.JPG

The first stance of the kung fu guy, I dont know of its original intention, I do know what people think it was... balance. Well, indeed this is true, it helps with your balance, but do you not see how that can be used for various ground techniques ? Arm bars, leg locks, shin chokes, etc..

I added the two of naihanchi "kick" to show its ability to be used just like the first stance, and the "cross stance" and its ability to be used as triangle chokes/locks on the ground.. I mean come on now, the body only moves so many different ways and directions... I hope im not the only one who sees this.

LOL about my signature, how is it off the mark ?

"They know that when two tigers really fight, one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove."

You should stop being so cynical. And I didnt get the first phrase from tomoyose, I got it from funakoshi, and its not written the same way as either one of them.. the bottom analogy is what I added! IT is MY signature, lol.


Edited by Sanchin (05/07/05 02:00 PM)
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139676 - 05/07/05 03:36 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

"Naihanchi = beginner kata"




huh? where did you learn that?

read up on it more, here's as good a place as any to start: http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_deadly_kata.html


by the way...can I ask what style(s) your experience is in?
since you have a blank profile and didn't answer any "what's your style" topics. or maybe I just missed it.

[edit] I just noticed you added to the "what styles" thread. Until you learn the difference between 'style' and 'kata', I have no reason to take you seriously.





Since this thread is based on something I posted in another thread, I suppose I should add my two cents. Although the quotes above were not directed at me, I do want to address them.

First, I was taught the Naihanchi katas first. They are, in my particular dojo, "beginner kata", despite the fact that our instructor stated these were originally black belt kata. Why are they now beginner kata? The movements are easy to learn because the kata are lateral.

Second, and this is just something that struck me as funny. You noted Iain Abernethy's work and then noted that Naihanchi and Sanchin are not "styles". Yet, Abernethy would argue that each kata was originally a style.
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The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#139677 - 05/07/05 04:11 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: kenposan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I understand the points in the article, that is his inference based on a quote that might have been translated for him. I haven't seen the actual quote in it's original Japanese, so I'm not willing to split hairs.
...use common sense: (keep in mind we are in 2005, not 1905)

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"

doesn't really answer the question does it? I could be wrong. Maybe we should all start listing our katas instead of our ryuha.

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#139678 - 05/07/05 08:31 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Orchidweb Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 18
I find that as complex and interesting as my shihokosukun is, the heiyan/pinans are what should really be practiced. The more advanced I get, the more I turn back to perfecting my basics.

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#139679 - 05/08/05 12:44 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

I understand the points in the article, that is his inference based on a quote that might have been translated for him. I haven't seen the actual quote in it's original Japanese, so I'm not willing to split hairs.
...use common sense: (keep in mind we are in 2005, not 1905)

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"

doesn't really answer the question does it? I could be wrong. Maybe we should all start listing our katas instead of our ryuha.




Perhaps we should, if this WAS 1905, would you argue with itosu, motobu, etc.. etc.. that katas are NOT styles ? Give me a break.

You can ignore me all ya want, im not into bashing people.. just good debate, we all have different views but when my view is the same as the likes of the "great" masters, im going to keep my view until someone else can prove me wrong and I highly doubt it is going to be you with your narrow mindedness. (no offense, its so easy for things on a message board with text to be taken offensively.. I DO NOT say things with that intention )

Im being very sincere when I say this, there is no reason for the emotional energy of this subject to carry into other discussions.. let bygones be bygones.

Sorry guys, I edit my posts too much.. its only because literally minutes later I want to add something but without cluttering the thread with other post, please forgive me...

I take your point of me "posting as knowing more than I do" .. some things I say may conjure up that thought in your mind , thats fine. The reality is I DO KNOW what I know, I dont claim to know something i dont know there is a huge difference. And about the ryuha thing, well that just means school or system not a style, if everyone went around saying I practice "William T. Wiley Middle Style Math" and "Syracuse University English Style" anytime someone asks what education level they are then we would have alot of controversy going around wouldnt we ?


Edited by Sanchin (05/08/05 01:06 AM)

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#139680 - 05/08/05 02:29 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin,

when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.

You presume a lot. I can show you techniques from each kata in Goju-ryu that you have not learned as a basic except from sanchin - gekisai serie and maybe tensho.
About your tiger thing, I have heard one regarding Higashiaonna after observing or either participating in a fight to the death : When 2 tigers fight one will die and the other will be severely injured.

You state that you train somewhat like the old ways, learning kata from different masters. You have read the Motobu book very well, he uses the same analogy (talking about styles of karate referring to kata). Do you, like Motobu, also focus on partner drills ? Have you experienced knowledge in ti techniques ?

Beginners kata. They introduce you into karate in a logical way. In Goju they are the gekisai series and were designed to introduce youngsters into Goju before sanchin practise. Sanchin was considered not appropriate training for youngsters although Miyagi must have been introduced to it at age 14. Because it is beginner does not mean it is easy it just means it is a good way to begin.

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#139681 - 05/08/05 02:41 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
ok. I'm glad to hear this is debate and not personal... despite my written tone, I am not reguarded as a negative person. I am blunt and sarcastic, I guess that could be interpreted as narrow-mindedness. I do admit when I'm wrong, and I try to learn from mistakes...so when you see evidence of that you'll realize I'm not as tunnel-visioned as you now think.

debate
We are splitting hairs, and I don't dwell in the past...I learn about the past and move on. so, ok if it was 100 years ago, you win. if we are in 2005, I win. lol I'm not going to ignore what has happened to karate since its induction to Japan...hey if it never made it to Japan, you wouldn't even be squabbling over the term 'Ryu'. which by the way, kindof makes sense why 100 yrs ago they were thinking of kata as styles within the system, right? After all, 'kata' could mean 'style' or 'form' or 'shape' in Japanese.

ryuha:
who said I was equating ryu to style?
read what I wrote again. since katas vary even between RYU, my wiseass comment implies this exchange:

In a normal conversation between two karateka living in a present day english speaking country, this sounds more natural...
Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Matsubayashi Shorin-Ryu"

why? because some things are implied in the question.

vs. this exchange:

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"
Q: "oh really, which book are you learning that kata from?"
A: "well, I learned it when I was 6 and I've retained all of the essental techniques from this kata to encompass a complete fighting system."
Q: "I see."

here's the test..ready?
The Q person walks away thinking...

a) wow, that guy shares the views of great masters.
{checks watch to what century it is}

b) I'd like to see him spar in horse-stance.

c) I wonder which style of Naihanchi.

get it?

WWWhhfffUUMMMPP...book closed.

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#139682 - 05/08/05 02:45 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
LOL @ Kintama!!!
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Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#139683 - 05/08/05 03:33 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,

when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.

You presume a lot. I can show you techniques from each kata in Goju-ryu that you have not learned as a basic except from sanchin - gekisai serie and maybe tensho.
About your tiger thing, I have heard one regarding Higashiaonna after observing or either participating in a fight to the death : When 2 tigers fight one will die and the other will be severely injured.

You state that you train somewhat like the old ways, learning kata from different masters. You have read the Motobu book very well, he uses the same analogy (talking about styles of karate referring to kata). Do you, like Motobu, also focus on partner drills ? Have you experienced knowledge in ti techniques ?

Beginners kata. They introduce you into karate in a logical way. In Goju they are the gekisai series and were designed to introduce youngsters into Goju before sanchin practise. Sanchin was considered not appropriate training for youngsters although Miyagi must have been introduced to it at age 14. Because it is beginner does not mean it is easy it just means it is a good way to begin.




Indeed, motobu is a huge influence on my karate interpretation. If you would be so kind as to show me these techniques then please do, I would appreciate that.. in the end, it will still either be a simple varation or combination of various basics and variations. Perhaps I should have elaborated a bit more when I stated that, sorry.

Kin, not all of us know as much as you and couldnt possibly be as good as you I suppose, so I guess I better stop practicing the 1905 way and join 2005 ? .. Your starting to sound like bullshido.net .
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139684 - 05/08/05 03:50 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I suck at karate. but I keep doing it because I don't take myself too seriously.

I was joking with you Sanchin..well, ok it was at your expense, my bad.

Sanchin, you seem like you are one of the good guys in karate...I have nothing against you...seriously.

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#139685 - 05/08/05 06:28 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Sanchin,

Regardless of what you think about styles when you tell someone you do the style Sanchin you will really confuse someone with basic knowledge of martial arts and you will repeatedly have to explain yourself to other martial artist who will think you're crazy.
Katas aren't considered styles anymore by anyone I've ever met,well,besides you.
This has no bearing on what you know or it's effectiveness.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#139686 - 05/08/05 10:46 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,

Regardless of what you think about styles when you tell someone you do the style Sanchin you will really confuse someone with basic knowledge of martial arts and you will repeatedly have to explain yourself to other martial artist who will think you're crazy.
Katas aren't considered styles anymore by anyone I've ever met,well,besides you.
This has no bearing on what you know or it's effectiveness.




Indeed, but how else am I supposed to tell someone what "style" I practice, if I no longer conform to what people have created as "styles" ? I dont practice anything like "shorin ryu" or "goju ryu" etc.. etc.. I practice realistic applications from the katas I(any many others) preach as "complete styles", this is what my "style" is.

Perhaps the reason the majority of people never feel "complete" in their training, and are always looking for an answer somewhere else, is because of this changing view of katas as "part of a style" rather than the style itself.

While I was watching the new pope the other night, he made a comment that will stick with me forever. -- "Everything is already, and always be given." Keep this in mind, pick your favorite kata regardless of "beginner" or "advanced" labels, and ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.


Edited by Sanchin (05/08/05 10:49 PM)
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139687 - 05/09/05 12:13 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.




exactly. what you are doing is not new. next time someone asks your style, maybe answering "MMA" would make more sense. THEN you could say which forms are the basis for your fighting style. There was a guy on here before that had a name for his own style...he hand picked kata from here, technique from there, applied immagination and he came up with the "Raptor" style...apparently some of the basis was upon watching Jurasic Park.

what I can't understand is how someone can feel qualified to come up with a fighting system, when they haven't even become proficient in an established one yet. In my opinion if MA is not your full-time career, don't attempt to re-invent the wheel until you have a wheel to work with.

In any event, enjoy yourself.
_________________________
Boris the Irresistable Monstrosity.

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#139688 - 05/09/05 12:28 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
I agree. You should become proficient in one style before trying to come up with your own even if it is based on a kata.
_________________________
Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year

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#139689 - 05/09/05 06:52 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin,
Opening in saifa kata. Right fist is vertical high hiki-te
left fist is clenching the right fist (sometimes also interpreted as open hand against the vertical fist). Moving slightly out of direction in semi long stance then turning 90 degrees to the left into musubi dachi pulling the right fist down to the left accompanied by left fist. This movement has to my knowledge no name and is used to break free from a grasping hand / deflecting a punch / locking or inflicting trauma on elbow-joint of an incoming attack.

To further discuss your Motobu influence, do you incorporate ti into your applications of kata or do you stick to atemi-waza.

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#139690 - 05/09/05 11:53 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Quote:

ask yourself HOW THE HELL IS THIS A COMPELTE STYLE?!? ... Now just figure it out... the human beings of karate past did it, no reason you cant.




exactly. what you are doing is not new. next time someone asks your style, maybe answering "MMA" would make more sense. THEN you could say which forms are the basis for your fighting style. There was a guy on here before that had a name for his own style...he hand picked kata from here, technique from there, applied immagination and he came up with the "Raptor" style...apparently some of the basis was upon watching Jurasic Park.

what I can't understand is how someone can feel qualified to come up with a fighting system, when they haven't even become proficient in an established one yet. In my opinion if MA is not your full-time career, don't attempt to re-invent the wheel until you have a wheel to work with.

In any event, enjoy yourself.




Im not going to argue the fact of creating your own martial art without ability and knowledge is foolish, but the fact still remains people made martial arts not the "almighty gods".

Also, I am proficient in several different "styles" of martial arts, TKD - 2 Styles(WTF, kang duk won), Wing Chun Kung Fu, and Combat Hapkido. Im 22, I started martial arts when I was around 6, I havent stopped since and I do it FULL TIME. I practice more hours a day than most people work jobs. I incorp. everything, ive never learned ti from anyone (im going to a chosei motobu seminar in july anyone in upstate/central NY wanna get together and work something out on going ?? ) My style isnt MMA, I dont believe in the term Mixed Martial Arts, this is just something people use because they dont understand one martial art enough to make a decent assessment on its completeness. You dont take yourself seriously , so why argue with someone who takes it deadly serious ?
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#139691 - 05/09/05 12:04 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin,
Opening in saifa kata. Right fist is vertical high hiki-te
left fist is clenching the right fist (sometimes also interpreted as open hand against the vertical fist). Moving slightly out of direction in semi long stance then turning 90 degrees to the left into musubi dachi pulling the right fist down to the left accompanied by left fist. This movement has to my knowledge no name and is used to break free from a grasping hand / deflecting a punch / locking or inflicting trauma on elbow-joint of an incoming attack.

To further discuss your Motobu influence, do you incorporate ti into your applications of kata or do you stick to atemi-waza.




That is just a simple variation of tsuki : /, not to mention it is IN naihanchi kata.

http://www.freewebs.com/sanchin/nh.JPG
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#139692 - 05/09/05 12:05 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Since we are now delving into the very nature of the phenomenon called a Ryu, and the transcendence of it, see the posts in the "same style different teachings" thread.


Edited by Alejandro (05/09/05 12:07 PM)
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#139693 - 05/09/05 02:51 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
CVV Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/06/04
Posts: 605
Loc: Belgium
Sanchin, it is not a punch.
Kata will never start with offense, always defense anticipating an attack. The opening will redirect opponents attacking force evading direct contact and redirecting through quarter turn (footwork) supported by the handwork to break free or to put a lock on the elbow joint. A tsuki would have a linear traject regarding footwork not a circular. The fist also stays in contact with your body.
It is a pull not a punch and I have never seen it in trainig a basic technique.

In view of beginner kata, talking about goju-ryu, before WWII sequence would be sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho as base to understand goju-ryu. I am always told that if you practise sanchin regulary the other kata will be easier to perform. Because it is such a harsh kata to learn, gekisai kata was added. To contribute to the learning curve, others have added takyoku / fukyu / kihon kata. The core of the goju-ryu system is sanchin - seyunchin - sesan - tensho.

Sanchin, have fun at the Motobu siminar. Give an impression afterwards ?

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#139694 - 05/09/05 03:53 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Beginning Kata means just that, a place to begin oneís karate kata studies.

In the older days an instructor would decide where to start a new student. So far as we know, pre 1900 some instructors, which later covered under the Shorin name, began with Seisan or Naifanchi kata. Though the Naha (later Goju-Toon Ryu) groups were late comers to Okinawan in the 1890ís their beginning kata was Sanchin.

When a version of karate began to be taught in the school systems, simpler drilling forms were created. In time they became some of the basis for some Japanese and Okinawan groups beginner training.

Other beginning kata were explored for the same purpose. The Shotokan folks began to work simpler forms than the Pinan/Heian. In the mid 30ís Okinawa was a staging ground for several attempted new student kata. The Fyuguata Sho and Ni, the Geseki Sho and Ni, the tensho kata and a series of 10 beginning kata was commissioned, and documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate but never incorporated formally into one of the developing systems (though there is evidence they became advanced drills used in the Shotokan camp).

But strictly speaking, there is no universal answer to what the first kata must be for the various Okinawan systems. Believing the Pinan/Heian or the Naifhanchi are where beginners start is not correct for various systems of Okinawan training. Itís just their acceptance by some of the larger systems makes it easy to assume that is the case.

For example some groups continue to use Seisan as the beginning kata, following the older paradigm of kata training.

All kata used for beginners consist of real technique. On a structural level one kata is not more or less important because of the techniques used.

But the way kata study is most often incorporated into karate training is not one where every aspect of every movement studied is fully explained for the defensive applications.

Most often for many years kata studies are for movement dynamics, not application potential. The drilling of correct technique a pre-cursor to developing the skill to actually apply that technique.

This is complicated to explain because defining a kata technique is very layered, from the use of a large movement section or sections as one technique, to using fractals of those techniques.

Frequently instructors would teach simpler answers to simple attacks for newer students. This allowed them practice in fitting into an attack and responding in a manner their skills could address correctly.

Movement skill is not as simple as being able to perform the moves of a kata. Instead it involves correct use of alignment, breathing, movement, energy release, etc. and frequently takes years of specific development. Personally as a rule of thumb I would expect most students after about 10 years of study on a kata to have developed a modicum of movement skill with its movement.

Then were does application study come in, it depends on the instructor and the students capabilities.

The beginning kata applications are as much movement studies as they are the optimal application of those techniques. Very valuable movement studies, often teaching subtle skills of fitting into difficult attack angles, but are no more than an opening study.

Most frequently the study of kata application potential is customized by the instructor. At one level any technique can counter any attack, so it hardly matters where or what order applications are worked. More often they are at random, for there is no consistent answer that works.

Any movement may have dozens or hundreds of applications. To take one kata and pull apart each aspect to totally know its potential is unlikely, or is it a reasonable answer.

The only goal is to make oneís karate work, not to be an encyclopedia. The depth of study just allows one to keep learning and keep oneís mind fresh.

Thus the kata movement studies one begins study with may or may not be on the immediate horizon when advanced study begins. That more likely depends on oneís abilities.

Of course this is looking at karate from the older, individual perspective, when teaching was one on one and correct skill ability was the key to application training.

There is no single one answer to where beginners begin, or to where the study goes.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#139695 - 05/09/05 09:48 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: CVV]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Sanchin, it is not a punch.
Kata will never start with offense, always defense anticipating an attack. The opening will redirect opponents attacking force evading direct contact and redirecting through quarter turn (footwork) supported by the handwork to break free or to put a lock on the elbow joint. A tsuki would have a linear traject regarding footwork not a circular. The fist also stays in contact with your body.
It is a pull not a punch and I have never seen it in trainig a basic technique.

In view of beginner kata, talking about goju-ryu, before WWII sequence would be sanchin seyunchin sesan tensho as base to understand goju-ryu. I am always told that if you practise sanchin regulary the other kata will be easier to perform. Because it is such a harsh kata to learn, gekisai kata was added. To contribute to the learning curve, others have added takyoku / fukyu / kihon kata. The core of the goju-ryu system is sanchin - seyunchin - sesan - tensho.

Sanchin, have fun at the Motobu siminar. Give an impression afterwards ?




Didnt say it was a punch in application, but a variation of the punch used to create a new technique. Anyone who truly understands the bunkai of the tsuki can see this. And yea, im trying to get ahold of the guy taking care of the seminar.. when I do im gonna find out if I can video tape and take pictures. If I can take pictures I will post them way before video.. the video will need to be transfered from tape-cd-comp ... I have no idea how to do that yet. I just hope im allowed to do that. take care.
_________________________
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#139696 - 05/09/05 11:04 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I don't want to change the direction of the thread, but someone needs a geek, and I'm at your service.

"the video will need to be transfered from tape-cd-comp"

If you are only doing one video transfer, buying the software might not be worth it.
The software runs $100+
Places with that service charge about $10/hour of video to mpeg conversion. check yellow pages under 'video transfers'.

sorry...back to the thread. geek out.

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#139697 - 06/25/08 12:00 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
some call it 'necro-posting'. I prefer to call it 'archival review'

another bump for the newbies...any thoughts on 'beginner's kata'?

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#139698 - 06/25/08 01:43 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: harlan]
shitosempei Offline
Member

Registered: 04/16/08
Posts: 28
I'm surprised that there has been no mention of the Kihon Katas . In Shito-Ryu , we have 17 basic (kihon) kata. 4 for white belts , and 3 for each belt up to brown , with a Heian as well, for each belt above white. Then again , we are known as the style with many kata.To test for Shodan , we must also learn Sanchin, Heian Godan, Jitte, Jiin, and Jion , for a total of 25 Kata!

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#139699 - 06/25/08 03:49 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: shitosempei]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Whoah! That's alot of Kata , how many total in your style of Shito Ryu?

Anyway, we used to start people out with a Hookiyu Kata, which is a paired down Gekisai kata, now we just start with Gekisai dai ichi and Gekisai dai ni.

We also used to marginally use some Hookiyu or Fukyu kata that were similar to Taikyoko, from my own perspective I felt people were spending too much time memorizing patterns and not enough on application and princples, so I am fine with 2 "beginner" kata personally. Of course before any formal kata we usually teach sandangi and kihon drills etc.

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#139700 - 06/25/08 03:59 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Zach_Zinn]
harlan Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/31/04
Posts: 6665
Loc: Amherst, MA
Guess I'm spoiled. First night of class teacher gave me the option of learning training kata, or classical kata, first.

I chose classical. To his everlasting chagrin, I'm sure, as my basics suck.

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#139701 - 06/25/08 04:39 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: shitosempei]
BrianS Offline
Higher rank than you
Professional Poster

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 5959
Loc: Northwest Arkansas
Sorry,but if you are doing 25 kata before shodan testing for shodan you aren't learning kata in my opinion, only how to perform the movements.

Too many people have too many kata in their curriculum imo.
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