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#139668 - 05/07/05 03:59 AM Beginner kata?
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
kenposan brought up a good point I'd like to talk about.
There really are no beginner kata.Just because a kata is short and not fancy doesn't mean it doesn't have in depth techniques that advanced can't learn from.
Do you think short,easy to learn katas are beginner because they are that way?
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#139669 - 05/07/05 05:33 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
AgenT Offline
Member

Registered: 10/11/04
Posts: 314
I dont know really, personnaly I think there are specific beginner kata. I mean you dont teach a beginning student kanku dai, Advanced students do begin to look at the most basic simple kata differently, but only often after years of training. I believe that short kata that use mostly basic movements, while not exactly beginner kata, are better suited to a beginners movement skills and overall physical condition. I dont believe all short kata are beginner such as seisan. I do regard fu ku gata ichi and geki sai dai ni as beginner kata. Think of it like this, if you had a problem with the movements of a longer more advanced kata, would there be any particular kata you'd fall back on to help you understand the longer one. For example you have a problem with kusanku and fall back on the pinans which are basic compared to kusanku and contain similar movements. Which kata would you fall back on to understand the pinans. Those kata would probably be the most basic beginner kata. Honestly though it depends on the student and style which is basic for them.


Edited by AgenT (05/07/05 05:37 AM)

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#139670 - 05/07/05 10:00 AM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I agree that there is always something to be gained from practicing any kata...but you have to remember there are kata (you know which ones) that was specifically designed for beginners...how deep in meaning and application do you think the kata designed for grade school kids goes? The emphasis on 'introductory kata' was on the calisthenic merit not so much application. picture white-belt school kids pairing up in one-step sparring...it's basic technique vs. basic defense right? I believe that was the intention behind these kata. some will argue.
Given an active imagination, I'm sure people could somehow turn an upper block into a takedown or grapling move...and they might be able to get something to work. Good for them, since the proof is in the success of the application. I don't pick apart the application of basic kata too much, I believe it confuses the original intention...which is practicing the basics of movement, coordination, step-punch/block timing, muscle memory retention, breathing, etc - these are all the most valuable things to have down cold before moving on to kata with practical bunkai.
I'm not criticising anyone for revisiting these kata and re-fitting an appication to them...I'm just saying the other kata keeps me busy enough as far as application analysis goes. I still practice basic kata religeously, but focus more on movement than application.

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#139671 - 05/07/05 12:28 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

I agree that there is always something to be gained from practicing any kata...but you have to remember there are kata (you know which ones) that was specifically designed for beginners...how deep in meaning and application do you think the kata designed for grade school kids goes? The emphasis on 'introductory kata' was on the calisthenic merit not so much application. picture white-belt school kids pairing up in one-step sparring...it's basic technique vs. basic defense right? I believe that was the intention behind these kata. some will argue.
Given an active imagination, I'm sure people could somehow turn an upper block into a takedown or grapling move...and they might be able to get something to work. Good for them, since the proof is in the success of the application. I don't pick apart the application of basic kata too much, I believe it confuses the original intention...which is practicing the basics of movement, coordination, step-punch/block timing, muscle memory retention, breathing, etc - these are all the most valuable things to have down cold before moving on to kata with practical bunkai.
I'm not criticising anyone for revisiting these kata and re-fitting an appication to them...I'm just saying the other kata keeps me busy enough as far as application analysis goes. I still practice basic kata religeously, but focus more on movement than application.




How about this, Naihanchi = beginner kata , Pinan = beginner kata ..
Naihanchi is thought of by many "masters" to be one of the "most deadly" katas for actual combat.

Pinan is well known now to have been a kata for "school children" but the school children didnt practice any practical bunkai, the plan was for them to teach the "real" bunkai upon reaching a more suitable age... the techniques are not different but it is the principles and viewpoint applied to those techniques that gives them the quality of "beginner" or "advanced" ... In all honesty, when I first started learning karate when I was young I was taught about 20-30 basics, I have yet to see ANY karate kata that has anything more advanced than these basics I learned when I was 6.
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#139672 - 05/07/05 01:00 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
There are kata that seem advanced to the beginner, then become easy once the student learnes them. Then there are kata that seem easy only to the beginner, yet their true diffuculty and complexity can only be discovered by the more experienced student.

The kata in the latter category, in my experience, are Naihanchi and Sanchin. They both are relatively simple in movement, and students can "learn" them fairly quickly. As time passes, one discovers the intricacies of the movement and dynamics of the katas, and they essentially become harder. As it is said: "Shuri te begins and ends in naihanchi", or "Goju Ryu begins and ends in sanchin." In my personal training, naihanchi and sanchin receive the most of my time, and are the most difficult for me. The more they are practiced, the more I learn and discover, and in turn get tastes of what I will learn from them next, which keeps me practicing them day in and day out.

So to answer the original question, it depends on the practitioner. Taikyoku can become a "masters" kata if trained by a practitioner who has skilled body mechanics learned from other kata. But still, one can't deny the original purpose of such kata: as training tools to help the beginning student learn proper mechanics. So yes, there are "beginner" kata, but simplicity of movement has little to do with that. Obviously passai has more complicated movement than naihanchi, but it is not more advanced; same when comparing seipai to sanchin.
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#139673 - 05/07/05 01:03 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
Quote:

"Naihanchi = beginner kata"




huh? where did you learn that? oh thats right, you were taught Naihanchi when you were 6.

read up on it more, here's as good a place as any to start: http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_deadly_kata.html

Pinan katas are a slightly different story than 'introductory' kata. The intro katas I was talking about (fukyugata,gekisai,taikyoku) were specifically designed for young learners when okinawan masters were tasked with incorporating karate into the Japanese curriculum... Pinan kata is thought to have come from segments of classic kata. there is controversy over the motivations Itosu had for doing this...but I'm sure you know more than the resident scholars on the subject...I'm listening.

by the way...can I ask what style(s) your experience is in?
since you have a blank profile and didn't answer any "what's your style" topics. or maybe I just missed it.

[edit] I just noticed you added to the "what styles" thread. Until you learn the difference between 'style' and 'kata', I have no reason to take you seriously. sorry, it's just that I think you are posting as knowing more than you actually do. I'm not being a snob, I'm starting to see what you are doing and I don't like it. It's my choice to contribute to your questions/understandings/thoughts so don't bother trying to bash me if I ignore you for a while.

take care.

p.s. your signature phrase is a bit off the mark...see here for the lesson: http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=384

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#139674 - 05/07/05 01:19 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I am well aware of naihanchi's "history", you dispute the fact that it was originally taught as a beginner kata? This is common knowledge among many naihanchi enthusiasts.

On the taikyoku, the techniques are not different.. there may be less techniques in the kata, but that doesnt mean the techniques have any less merit. Like I said before, it is the view and principles you apply to your kata that gives it the merit.. in reality because the original intention of something is different than what you are using it for doesnt mean it can not be used effectively in many other ways.
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139675 - 05/07/05 01:45 PM Re: Beginner kata [Re: Sanchin]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
http://www.freewebs.com/sanchin/stance.JPG

The first stance of the kung fu guy, I dont know of its original intention, I do know what people think it was... balance. Well, indeed this is true, it helps with your balance, but do you not see how that can be used for various ground techniques ? Arm bars, leg locks, shin chokes, etc..

I added the two of naihanchi "kick" to show its ability to be used just like the first stance, and the "cross stance" and its ability to be used as triangle chokes/locks on the ground.. I mean come on now, the body only moves so many different ways and directions... I hope im not the only one who sees this.

LOL about my signature, how is it off the mark ?

"They know that when two tigers really fight, one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove."

You should stop being so cynical. And I didnt get the first phrase from tomoyose, I got it from funakoshi, and its not written the same way as either one of them.. the bottom analogy is what I added! IT is MY signature, lol.


Edited by Sanchin (05/07/05 02:00 PM)
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#139676 - 05/07/05 03:36 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: Kintama]
kenposan Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 08/23/01
Posts: 633
Loc: Columbus, Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

"Naihanchi = beginner kata"




huh? where did you learn that?

read up on it more, here's as good a place as any to start: http://www.practical-martial-arts.co.uk/practical_karate/iain_abernethy/ia_deadly_kata.html


by the way...can I ask what style(s) your experience is in?
since you have a blank profile and didn't answer any "what's your style" topics. or maybe I just missed it.

[edit] I just noticed you added to the "what styles" thread. Until you learn the difference between 'style' and 'kata', I have no reason to take you seriously.





Since this thread is based on something I posted in another thread, I suppose I should add my two cents. Although the quotes above were not directed at me, I do want to address them.

First, I was taught the Naihanchi katas first. They are, in my particular dojo, "beginner kata", despite the fact that our instructor stated these were originally black belt kata. Why are they now beginner kata? The movements are easy to learn because the kata are lateral.

Second, and this is just something that struck me as funny. You noted Iain Abernethy's work and then noted that Naihanchi and Sanchin are not "styles". Yet, Abernethy would argue that each kata was originally a style.
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The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim

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#139677 - 05/07/05 04:11 PM Re: Beginner kata? [Re: kenposan]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
I understand the points in the article, that is his inference based on a quote that might have been translated for him. I haven't seen the actual quote in it's original Japanese, so I'm not willing to split hairs.
...use common sense: (keep in mind we are in 2005, not 1905)

Q: "What style of karate do you study?"
A: "Naihanchi"

doesn't really answer the question does it? I could be wrong. Maybe we should all start listing our katas instead of our ryuha.

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