FightingArts Estore
Pressure Points
From a medical professional, straight facts on where and how to hit that can save your life.
Stretching
Limber or not, anyone can add height and speed to their kicks with this method.
Calligraphy
For yourself or as a gift, calligraphy is special, unique and lasting.
Karate Uniforms
Look your best. Max snap. low cost & superior crafted: “Peak Performance Gold” 16 oz uniforms.

MOTOBU
Classic book translation. Hard to find. Not in stores.
Who's Online
0 registered (), 44 Guests and 4 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
AndyLA, danacohenn, ksusanc, kellypnik123, leyinn
22904 Registered Users
Top Posters (30 Days)
Dobbersky 15
cxt 7
trevek 6
futsaowingchun 3
JKogas 2
August
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
New Topics
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/14/14 10:49 PM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/11/14 03:36 PM
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:14 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
12/30/13 08:32 AM
Where Are They Now?
by Dobbersky
05/30/13 08:08 AM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Prizewriter
04/16/12 02:48 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
04/12/12 11:16 AM
Throwing
by
04/23/05 10:58 PM
Recent Posts
ITF TaeKwonDo or Shotokan Karate????
by Dobbersky
Yesterday at 12:04 PM
Gi or no Gi Grappling?
by Dobbersky
07/29/14 05:11 AM
Applied center line theory
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:55 AM
centerline concepts
by futsaowingchun
07/28/14 08:53 AM
language of syllabus
by trevek
07/14/14 04:50 PM
MMA - A passing Fad
by Dobbersky
07/10/14 07:35 AM
Anderson Silva - Leg Break
by Dobbersky
07/09/14 06:13 AM
Throwing
by JKogas
07/03/14 07:40 PM
Forum Stats
22904 Members
36 Forums
35564 Topics
432456 Posts

Max Online: 424 @ 09/24/13 10:38 PM
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#139648 - 05/12/05 10:39 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: medulanet]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Nice one, medulant!
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

Top
#139649 - 05/12/05 04:05 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: medulanet]
ai-uchi Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 200
Loc: harlow essex
gravity when discussed in science deals with a downward motion, which is why objcts such as discus and javelin can be detailed in its flight pattern.

the forward motion is somebody falls is due to muscular contraction, not gravity. Gravity is the attraction between two bodies and works in a straight line. therfore when punching you need a forward movement behind the punch which does require muscular conraction, so i am sorry sir and as regard my classes , as somebody who teaches sport science in college i do have a fair idea of what i am talking about.

when you move forward gravity does in deed attempt to pull you down, however the forward movement is initiated by your legs not be gravity which can initiate movement in only one direction - down.
_________________________
streakers - your end is in sight

Top
#139650 - 05/12/05 04:29 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: ai-uchi]
nenipp Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/13/04
Posts: 1205
So if I was to put my bowling ball on top of my bo, it would only move down (unless my bo had developed muscles since i last saw it, and I don't think it has, it get's far too little exercise)

Top
#139651 - 05/12/05 04:33 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: ai-uchi]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Understood, ai-uchi! Gravity doesn't really control the movement I described, you are right. Muscular contraction, yes, but only partially, as it is a natural motion of the body. Muscular contraction (particularly gamakku, an area of muscles of the lower back) controls the movement.

Physics is something that I cannot delve very deeply into; it makes my head hurt. That is why I am a History student!

It is important, however, to keep in mind that physics was not a field of study incorporated into the development of tode; only natural body motion. The movement I described previously has do do with natural body movement, like walking. Using gravity to describe it is just a way to apply a modern fieild of science to something much older. Physics can explain karate movement, but it doesn't need to always be used to. The gravity application is in the slight drop of the knee, which lowers the entire body's center of gravity, sending your body forward, disrupting the opponent's CG as well when the fist makes contact. It is about being mindful of one's own center of gravity. You essentially are in "balance in unbalance." You fall forward until your target stops you. This is in contrast to the modern, deadlocked way of executing technique. Gravity greatly controls the way we naturally move around on a daily basis, and karate movement was developed from that natural movement, so voila'!


Edited by Alejandro (05/12/05 04:41 PM)
_________________________
In Budo, -Al

Top
#139652 - 05/12/05 05:18 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: ai-uchi]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Ai-uchi, if you had understood my post you would have realized that I spoke about using enough force to first overcome gravity and then using the "fall" to assist in power generation. Karate is about using muscles, not over using and realizing that it is not an activity purely based on althletic ability. Martial science is different from sports science, unless your karate is simply a sport and nothing else. The key is using just enough energy to accomplish a goal. Believe me after playing college football, bench pressing 405, squating 525, and running in the 4.6s - 4.7s at 230 pounds I understand about high level athletics.

Top
#139653 - 05/12/05 05:21 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: ai-uchi]
hedkikr Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/28/05
Posts: 2827
Loc: Southern California, USA
Ai-uchi
Your credentials obviously confirm that you're an expert in your field. I think I might know what Alejandro is referring to.

I've always said that walking is just controlled falling forward. w/o gravity, as we swing our rear foot forward it would reach its apex & continue its trajectory (an upward angle). It would mimic walking up a ramp.

Because of gravity, you not only propel yourself forward but control your decent downwards. We can utilize both forces (forward momentum w/ gravity) to increase the impact of our punch. The simple action of rotating your hips is only part of the equasion - harness gravity & you punch w/ "your whole body".

Also, Alejandro...you sound a lot like a Shukokai practitioner (not that there aren't universal truths). What do you think, Kin?


Edited by hedkikr (05/12/05 05:22 PM)

Top
#139654 - 05/13/05 05:52 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: hedkikr]
kichigai Offline
Newbie

Registered: 04/28/05
Posts: 6
Loc: Lynn Haven, Fl
I would like to comment on the topic at hand. Although I am a new member to this forum, I have some experience with the subject. As has been mentioned earlier, when teaching a new student, they are told to "put your hand here, then end up here." This is a method of teaching and not neccessarily the final or actual method of use and practice. The problem is that students think that the way they initially learned the technique(s) is also the way they must continue to practice them. However, as a student improves, their technique must change. Start big and whittle down to the essence of the movement. This of course take time, and many instructors are incapable of taking a student through the process, as they have not acheived this themselves. The use of gravity and koshi and gammaku and overall body alignment contributes to the ability to implement "whittled-down" technique, but requires a qualified teacher, effort and study by the student. Most karate students don't study what they practice - they just practice. This leads to stagnation and frustration. Back leg bent or straight? We can use both - or neither(!). Through proper study we can determine which one is best for different applications. Also, many people confuse practice and training with usage. A kata or movement may be a lesson or a training tool and not neccessarily the way you are going to apply the technique. Through study, we can find which one is which.

Kichigai

Top
#139655 - 05/13/05 11:09 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
Neko456 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 01/18/05
Posts: 3260
Loc: Midwest City, Ok, USA

1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai). As mentioned this movement has various applications so its needed, maybe it should be explained earlier to clear up such misconception. Deflect and strike simutanelouly and trap and throw....


2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next. Blind moves are risking, of course in Kata the movements are exzzagerated to build focus in basic. As we all no there is no posseing in real fighting. I was taught to flow natutally in movement. This exzzagerated movement wins trophies and builds focus.


3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi. Karate-do teaches more then fighting it teaches fittness, this contiuned exercise build strenght in the legs and back. As the lunge does in exercise classes or Yoga. I've noticed that it in all the 30 or so systems I've studied. In use the back leg should only be locked for a fraction of a second at the movement of contact on a strike.


4. open hand with thumb bent in. It mostly for safety until you are skilled you can hurt your fingers and thumb, without tuckng your thumb. Some of the ecletic systems teach the thumb out as you strike, I still teach thumb tucked because it doesn't matter its only used for a fraction of a second. Knife hand strike is a KHS in all system.


5. open hand with fingers straight and together. Safety and in some soft systen this is not the case unless you are piercing/striking then fingers are stronger if held together.


6. lift back heel slightly when punching. Almost every system does this to generate full torque in strikes or throws, so its not a wasted motion its body mechanics, its a fraction of a second flowing movement.


7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching. This is the longest punch that can be done, there are all lengths of punches that are taught from 6" to that one. The turning of the wrist also is thought to tear the skin as it is done in boxing and also helps in focusing on shorter interal strikes.


8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes. This is system specfic not all systems strike or block this way, most soft/hard systems S&B with a check hand. But even this movement has various meaning it could be holding as you strike with the open and a palm up hold would work.


9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks. Some of these motions have various meaning, 1 is the trapping wrist elbow break or lock using this crossing motion the other could be just a chest cover/guard done in boxing and other striking arts, Or simutaneous rear hand block, back knuckle strike.


10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head. Obviosuly done basically to build power, then various application like the high deflect, low hand grabbing grion, or block hook strike then strike the neck. Notice how all the big motions become shorter more direct 2 motion counter and attack. (Pulling the cord for the light to come on).


11. long and low zenkutsu dachi. Again Karate-do has multiple purpose for practice this is done for fitness and form as in the Cat or Dog position in Yoga. It is predominate in ShotoKan and Taekwondo (Okinawan Goju its not practiced) remember that Funokoshi taught this for school yard fitness program and to his ex-enemies as a fitness program (as I am often reminded by the Kalia/Sialt teachers).

The Japanese took these basic and turned into a forminable fighting system. The long stance is seen in fighting for split seconds as in extended lunging overhead attacks or rear hand upper cutting attacks.
_________________________
DBAckerson

Top
#139656 - 05/13/05 03:05 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: medulanet]
ai-uchi Offline
Member

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 200
Loc: harlow essex
Quote:

Ai-uchi, if you had understood my post you would have realized that I spoke about using enough force to first overcome gravity and then using the "fall" to assist in power generation. Karate is about using muscles, not over using and realizing that it is not an activity purely based on althletic ability. Martial science is different from sports science, unless your karate is simply a sport and nothing else. The key is using just enough energy to accomplish a goal. Believe me after playing college football, bench pressing 405, squating 525, and running in the 4.6s - 4.7s at 230 pounds I understand about high level athletics.




sir how is martial science dierent from sport science - it uses movement of centre of gravity which i can explain. it's stance depending upon stance are devloped using science i.e. zenkutsudachi covers a large rectangular area btween the feet, which is why it is stable.

itwe did not use science we would still be doing bunny hops as a warm up

and regards competing at high level i know something about it as well as icompetd at european level for n.ireland in WKF, and is karate a sport - most assuredly but it is also an art, a way of life etc
_________________________
streakers - your end is in sight

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3


Moderator:  Ames, Cord, MattJ, Reiki, Ronin1966 




Action Ads
1.5 Million Plus Page Views
Monthly
Only $89
Details

Ryukyu Art
Artifacts from the Ryukyu Kingdom missing since WWII. Visit www.ShisaLion.Org to view pictures

Best Stun Guns
Self Defense Products-stun guns, pepper spray, tasers and more

Surveillance 4U
Complete surveillance systems for covert operations or secure installation security

Asylum Images
Book presents photo tour of the Trans-Allegany Lunatic Asylum. A must if you're going to take a ghost tour!

 



Unbreakable Unbrella

krav maga