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#139628 - 05/07/05 12:02 AM wasted or necessary movements?
Kintama Professional Poster Registered: 04/17/05 Posts: 2724 Loc: Massachusetts	In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata... (I started to use English technique names, but since this is a karate forum now...ha... Nihongo hanashimasho ka!) 1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai). 2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next. 3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi. 4. open hand with thumb bent in. 5. open hand with fingers straight and together. 6. lift back heel slightly when punching. 7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching. 8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes. 9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks. 10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head. 11. long and low zenkutsu dachi. I look forward for your feedback.
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#139629 - 05/07/05 12:48 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
AgenT Member Registered: 10/11/04 Posts: 314	When I do katas usually I do the full motion. It helps me understand its dynamics better. Now when I do kata especially beginning ones, I try to eliminate all wasted movement. When it comes to kata movement usually doing the full motion tends to help keep the rythm of the kata. I dont do a low zen though its more upright and i keep my guard hand closed when doing open hand strikes and always move my head first. I tend to experiment by cutting out as much uneeded movement as I can it adds a good deal of power, its a little more difficult to maintain a good fluidity but other then that its fine. Most those movements you mentioned I dont see as wasted movements because any part of the movement can be used.
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#139630 - 05/07/05 12:58 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Former Moderator Registered: 12/26/04 Posts: 3783 Loc: Arkansas, U.S.	Quote: In the style/philosophy of karate you practice, are these wasted or necessary movements in kata... (I started to use English technique names, but since this is a karate forum now...ha... Nihongo hanashimasho ka!) 1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai). 2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next. 3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi. 4. open hand with thumb bent in. 5. open hand with fingers straight and together. 6. lift back heel slightly when punching. 7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching. 8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes. 9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks. 10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head. 11. long and low zenkutsu dachi. I look forward for your feedback. 1. Not wasted at all. Bringing the hand could be deflecting a punch,the other hand grabs the wrist and pulls to hip.The deflecting hand then delivers a strike to various targets. 2. Always look before your technique.Your eyes focus your power. 3. Back leg should not be completely locked. 4. Thumb should not be bent,it should be pulled toward the palm and straight.Bent is an incorrect shuto. 5. Fingers should be slightly bent. 6. Lift the heel to generate power from the ground. 7. Thpppt!! That is a sport version and incorret. Fist should be at 3/4 turn for proper bone and muscle alignment. 8. Palm up indicates you having someone's arm or wrist lifting upward. 9. Crossing arms can be a two way action(push/pull)or for grappling applications. 10. When the knifehand comes backward that is the direction of the first strike,the second is forward on a different target. 11. This stance should be like standing in a square not elongated. These are my beliefs and how I was taught.I've found them to be accurate for true self defense applications. _________________________ Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year
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#139631 - 05/07/05 01:55 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
Kintama Professional Poster Registered: 04/17/05 Posts: 2724 Loc: Massachusetts	I should answer my thoughts on these too: this is the way I think of these techniques, If I seem to criticise it's because 1. I care. and 2. I want an honest reaction if you disagree. 1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai). I used to do this in kata, but bunkai I felt open hand was more natural. since not many people punch and kick at the same time, I practice this block by only bringing the fist to about elbow height. there are other technique that effectively deal with punch/kick defense. 2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next. yeah, I was taught to look first...but moving your eyes first then moving your head with your body makes more sense for less telegraph. if you notice...old footage of masters don't turn their heads first. I have a couple of theories as to why that is. 3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi. only at the moment of impact! 4. open hand with thumb bent in. I broke a thumb doing this once during a ridgehand strike...haven't bent my thumb during it since. 5. open hand with fingers straight and together. yes, but I'm often loose with the hand until right before the moment of contact. 6. lift back heel slightly when punching. blech...horrible loss of power. when you have your heel up it acts as a shock absorber...you don't want to absorb shock! you want to transmit it! have someone push your punch and notice the difference between the two ways...let me know what you find out. 7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching. 3/4 turn...everybody knows that. some do 1/2 turn which also makes more sense than full turn. 8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes. this is the way I first learned...later I was taught to keep it at a more comfortable and efficient 45. 9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks. does anyone ever actually do those blocks in sparring? no, they don't. sure you could make up some elaborate and maybe effective bunkai for this, but when you really think about it...it doesn't make much sense to ever have both arms tied up at the same point in your center IF you are just blocking. 10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head. complete waste of travel distance unless you are breaking boards. 11. long and low zenkutsu dachi. another blech...don't see this stance too much in full-contact sparring either. no manoverability. forces an overcommitment to the technique. and begs for a sweep/takedown. a stance for show only. they should rename the long-n-low to 'trophy stance'. I think Elvis popularized this stance. _________________________ Boris the Irresistable Monstrosity.
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#139632 - 05/07/05 02:34 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: SANCHIN31]
CVV Enthusiast Registered: 08/06/04 Posts: 605 Loc: Belgium	Great Karate forum. On the number 2, first look into the direction you are moving. In Goju-ryu this is not the case. The head will move simultaniously to the movement because of close fighting. I give an example for Kururunfa (but I am happy to discus any Goju kata). In the first 2 movements(slide into neko-achi dachi sideway's, blocking punch or breaking arm + kanzetsu-geri) the attacker is in front of you attacking straight foreward. You slide to the right (left in second movement) and simultanously turn the head as you move out of his line looking at your adversary. If I would look first to the side and then move, this would indicate an attack from the side in wich I would go straight back, not sideway's. This is not good Goju-ryu as we try to move out of the line of attack. Currently regarding shitei-ni kata kururunfa it is thaught moving the head first and then doing the movement. I discussed this with a senior (Usamu Hirano shihan) and his comment was that the new kata instructions are not logic and simplefied Goju ryu to fit the need of uniform execution rules for kata for all styles, to have clear rules in competition. He refuses to abandon the old way and will only teach the shitei version in preparation for competition but will not use it as standard. I hope this will evolve in the right direction and not abandon the old ways just to have simplefied sport kata. I have always opposed to the idea to have 2 types of kata (a sport and a traditional version) as this will destroy the heart of kata. In our dojo we have abandoned the shitei practise and stick to 'traditional' execution. In Shotokan and Wado-ryu it is mandatory to look first and then move. I do not know regarding Shito-ryu, especially the Naha kata ? I think they adapted to first look then move.
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#139633 - 05/07/05 02:36 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
SANCHIN31 Former Moderator Registered: 12/26/04 Posts: 3783 Loc: Arkansas, U.S.	Quote: I should answer my thoughts on these too: this is the way I think of these techniques, If I seem to criticise it's because 1. I care. and 2. I want an honest reaction if you disagree. Hi, I am now going to spank your post into submission Quote: 1. Bringing closed fist up to shoulder before doing a gedan uke (or gedan barai). I used to do this in kata, but bunkai I felt open hand was more natural. since not many people punch and kick at the same time, I practice this block by only bringing the fist to about elbow height. there are other technique that effectively deal with punch/kick defense. Doesn't matter how you do the kata if you have a good application for it. Quote: 2. Head snap to first look in the direction you are going to move next. yeah, I was taught to look first...but moving your eyes first then moving your head with your body makes more sense for less telegraph. if you notice...old footage of masters don't turn their heads first. I have a couple of theories as to why that is. Yes! Quote: 3. back leg is straightened in zenkutsu dachi. only at the moment of impact! oky doky. Quote: 4. open hand with thumb bent in. I broke a thumb doing this once during a ridgehand strike...haven't bent my thumb during it since. That'll learn ya!! Lots of people find out the hard way. That too is a sport version and makes your hand weak.Somebody must have thought it looked cool. Quote: 5. open hand with fingers straight and together. yes, but I'm often loose with the hand until right before the moment of contact. You should be,as with any other strike. Quote: 6. lift back heel slightly when punching. blech...horrible loss of power. when you have your heel up it acts as a shock absorber...you don't want to absorb shock! you want to transmit it! have someone push your punch and notice the difference between the two ways...let me know what you find out. Well you don't start the punch with your heel up silly. I'm talking about a reverse punch.The heel comes up as the body torques and transfers the energy,not before. Quote: 7. full turn of fist to horizontal when punching. 3/4 turn...everybody knows that. some do 1/2 turn which also makes more sense than full turn. You'd be surprised how many don't know that and will stand there and argue with you(me)til they're blue in the gills!! Quote: 8. guard hand is palm up during open hand strikes. this is the way I first learned...later I was taught to keep it at a more comfortable and efficient 45. Once again,doesn't matter how you position it as long as the application is good. Quote: 9. crossing arms at midbody during blocks. does anyone ever actually do those blocks in sparring? no, they don't. sure you could make up some elaborate and maybe effective bunkai for this, but when you really think about it...it doesn't make much sense to ever have both arms tied up at the same point in your center IF you are just blocking. The bunkai is not too elaborate. Two way action,grappling applications.Definately not a block though. Quote: 10. knifehand strikes starting at the head or from behind the head. complete waste of travel distance unless you are breaking boards. As the arm comes in strike it going back toward you(this is the back motion),then strike forward on various targets.Striking the arm in this manner numbs it,ouch. Quote: 11. long and low zenkutsu dachi. another blech...don't see this stance too much in full-contact sparring either. no manoverability. forces an overcommitment to the technique. and begs for a sweep/takedown. a stance for show only. they should rename the long-n-low to 'trophy stance'. I think Elvis popularized this stance. I agree with you there. Now go to your room. _________________________ Skinny,Bald,and Handsome! Fightingarts Warrior of the year
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#139634 - 05/07/05 04:04 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: SANCHIN31]
Kintama Professional Poster Registered: 04/17/05 Posts: 2724 Loc: Massachusetts	CVV...I agree with everything you redundantly said. lol {cracks nuckles} Sanchin, first, how old do you think I am? I'm 38 and haven't been told to go to my room in at least 4 or 5 years! "Doesn't matter how you do the kata if you have a good application for it." -don't tell that to white belts...you'll get katas looking like the latest JChan sequence. I thought you were saying you have your heel up during impact...nevermind. I see what you are saying about knifehand strikes starting at the head....but I still don't agree. if you are using it to block, then it is still wasted motion, if you are using it to sting...well then you must be playing patty-cake. thats it. I'm ZZZZ'in. good talk sanchin, CVV
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#139635 - 05/07/05 03:24 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: Kintama]
kenposan Enthusiast Registered: 08/23/01 Posts: 633 Loc: Columbus, Ohio	Quote: (I started to use English technique names, but since this is a karate forum now...ha... Nihongo hanashimasho ka!) It is a karate forum but that doesn't mean we all use Japanese terminology. My sensei dropped it long before I came along so it's all gibberish to me. _________________________ The angry man will defeat himself in battle, as well as in life. -Samurai maxim
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#139636 - 05/07/05 04:56 PM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: kenposan]
medulanet Professional Poster Registered: 09/03/03 Posts: 2142 Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA	First I don't have time now to answer each point from the original post. But here is my basic take on this subject. Kintama, I don't know if you are saying that these are all things your learned in Matsubayashi, but I have seen people do and teach all of what you say. Most of it is misinterpretation. Everyone's body is different and at more advanced levels I will do some things that others will not, but as long as we are using the same basic principles it is okay. To straighten the back leg completely at any point in zenkutsu dachi is not understanding the way power is generated in karate. Our style is natural and we sink into our stances. To lock out the back leg will rob you of power. Gravity is used to move forward, not muscular power like straightening and pushing with the legs. If I generate power with my center I am doing real karate, and as MV has said many times there is more involved than just koshi. Like I said in an earlier post that was erased the fist is not brought to the shoulder using muscular power. It is a side effect of using relaxed power. The fist whips. Think about cracking a whip. No one asks, as I crack my whip should the tail end go behind me as I strike with it, it just happens naturally. It is the physics of using a whip. Karate is very similar. If you are generating power properly and using the proper prinicples your questions will be answered and bad habits will go away. Many people do not understand how techniques are used and therefore do not understand why karate is done how it is done. Then people misinterpret the actual technique and create something that is a far cry from what it was originally intended. If you understand why you do and not just what you think you do karate becomes more effective.
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#139637 - 05/08/05 12:44 AM Re: wasted or necessary movements? [Re: medulanet]
Kintama Professional Poster Registered: 04/17/05 Posts: 2724 Loc: Massachusetts	"I don't know if you are saying that these are all things your learned in Matsubayashi" no, not all. I just listed a bunch of aspects that people in the past (MV and others, I wish it wasn't deleted) have pointed out as being 'school boy' karate, and I was interested in thoughts on it. "To straighten the back leg completely at any point in zenkutsu dachi is not understanding the way power is generated in karate" I disagree, respectfully of course. At the moment of impact, you don't want to introduce any shock absorbers. back leg straight (not hyperextended), and heel down. front heel and back knee is 1 fist distance away. You used the infamous cracking whip metaphor... I agree when you say: body loose, weight sunken into stance, non-muscle centric power, you go where your hara leads you-yes?. HOWEVER right at the point of impact you don't want to be a whip, you want your body to be a structure that doesn't bend or give under stress. the force has to go somewhere, where do you want it to go? 10% to the bent knee, 20% to the raised shoulder, and lets raise the back heel for another 15% loss?. I don't think so, you want as much force transmitted to the target by properly structuring your body with no weak points along a dispersed path from ground to fist. some will be thru the front leg, most will be from the rear leg. I don't care if it's called bad form or school boy, it's physics of structure. (if it's done correctly, an observer can't even tell that it is straightening because it's for a fraction of a second). I know what kind of karate you were talking about, and I agree with you. but I'm not going to budge on the straight leg during impact until I see proof. You might have figured out a way to compensate the power loss in a way I'm not aware of, but that wouldn't make you able to say that I don't understand the way power is generated in karate...we simply arrived at the same answer using different methods... like Victor says: it's all just Karate. Thank-you for sharing your thoughts.
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