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#138657 - 05/05/05 01:34 PM Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Check out the popular images of chokki motobu and shigeru nakumura in there "guard stance" in mark bishops - okinawan karate teachers, styles, and secret techniques. You may notice that is is pretty much identical to one of the most effective barek knuckle boxing guards. Ive recently seen several versions of Tomari Seisan from Okinawan Kenpo, each one used a slightly different height and angle for there guard most likely for comfort the same reason you see SLIGHT differences between motobu and nakumura, same reason there was slight differences in the old bareknuckle boxers but all relatively the same exact guard.

This guard is nothing new to me as the techique can be found in pinan katas, passai, and many other modern katas (usually this is a "reinforced block" ).

But what caught my eyes, is the highly effective "Drop Step Punch" (used very naturally and with ease by the old time bareknuckle boxers) is in this kata, and its identical to the way my grandfather showed my father, and he showed me.

Anyone eager enough could even look at the bareknuckle boxing takedowns and throws that "used to be" , take away the opponent and practice them "shadow boxing" and you will notice practically identical hand arm and leg movements found in kata ..


Edited by Sanchin (05/05/05 01:35 PM)
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#138658 - 05/05/05 01:39 PM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: Sanchin]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
It would probaly help if I posted a video link to Tomari Seisan .. hehe

Several versionas can be found by signing up at
http://www.goju-ryu.info/

anotehr site that has two versions found on the site above but without having to sign up
http://karate.dhs.org/katanote.htm

The first site has a better version imo.
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#138659 - 05/05/05 03:46 PM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: Sanchin]
cxt Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/11/03
Posts: 5823
Loc: USA

Really cool stuff can be found when you start looking at the old bare knuckle dyas of boxing and karate.
They (the boxers) also used a "twist punch" that was eventaully banned.
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#138660 - 05/05/05 05:55 PM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: Sanchin]
Alejandro Offline
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Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Very good post! I had been thinking of starting a discussion on this, but you beat me to it!

The similarity between Okinawan Karate and old-school bareknuckle boxing is often hard to see for many people, because of the static and superficial nature of much of modern karate. Many people should look to old boxing to learn what their karate should look more like

There seemed to be an emphasis (in old boxing) on body positions that enhance technique such as those similar to zenkutsu dachi. There was an emphasis on dynamic, penetrating technique (since it was bare-knuckle, shots had to count) and practical grappling. Sounds like Koryu Tode to me! Being that boxing and karate were developed on different parts of the world, the similarities are a result of both methods being close-quarters combat systems based around efficiency of motion and submitting an opponent.

I've yet to see a (published) research or comparison study done on this. Hmm...good idea!
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#138661 - 05/05/05 07:05 PM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: Alejandro]
medulanet Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 09/03/03
Posts: 2142
Loc: Phoenix, Arizona USA
Check out this website, he talks about some of the similarities as well in some of his articles. He has a better understanding of karate's original intent than most shotokan karateka.

http://www.iainabernethy.com/articles/article_home.htm

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#138662 - 05/05/05 07:40 PM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: medulanet]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Ive been reading his articles since I first noticed them on Geoff Thompsons site, great stuff. I am year to read one of his books.

Alejandro, to be honest, I dont believe in the theory that the methods are developed seperately.. if that was the case, then I believe both would look quite different. Look at civilizations that developed seperately, any of them the same ? Not to mention there was plenty of interraction between people who might have been gifted pugilist or swordsman. I do believe one way or another the arts of ryukyu influenced boxing, or boxing influenced them.
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#138663 - 05/06/05 10:42 AM Re: Bareknuckle Boxing & Karate [Re: Sanchin]
Alejandro Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 05/02/02
Posts: 940
Loc: Las Cruces, NM USA
Good point, Sanchin.

There are known ocurrences of Western boxers in the Japan area. I also imagine that the Okinawans would have been extremely interested in western boxing methods, looking for anything that could enhance their tode. Similar to how they were significantly interested in Chinese Chuan Fa.



Edited by Alejandro (05/06/05 10:43 AM)
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