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#137861 - 05/03/05 11:17 PM Accompanying or Encompassing??
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
An interesting discussion arose tonight after the BJJ workout. Many of these guys have backgrounds in Ju-jitsu(japanese) and judo.

My understanding (limited) is that Dr. Kano created judo by removing the more dangerous techniques from Ju-Jitsu. If this is the case, by studying Ju-jitsu wouldn't you learn all of judo's techniques but not vice versa? Under this assumption could a ju-jitsu ka claim rank in judo? Could they enter and compete in judo competitions? Wouldn't it be more advantageous to learn Ju-jitsu so that you would have all the techniques and then "limit" yourself to the judo approved techniques during a competition?

That is alot to ask. Please feel free to comment on any or all of it. I completely understand that all of these questions are based on an initial assumption that may be flawed. I am prepared to be corrected as well as educated.

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#137862 - 05/04/05 02:00 AM Re: Accompanying or Encompassing?? [Re: BuDoc]
eyrie Offline
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Registered: 12/28/04
Posts: 3106
Loc: QLD, Australia
My (equally limited) understanding is, that Kano studied a number of styles of jujitsu and took the "best" techniques (predominantly Kito-ryu) from each of the then remaining jujitsu ryu-ha, and incorporated these into the Kodokan syllabus. Each of the different styles of jujitsu (at the time) specialized in specific techniques - Kito-ryu was famous for its nage-waza, Fusen-ryu for ne-waza, Tenshinshinyo-ryu for its striking, throwing, holding, chokes, joint locks and aiki-type movements etc.

Particularly after the Kodokan's ignomious defeat by Fusen-ryu in 1900, was ne-waza incorporated into Kodokan "judo". It has also been reputed, that Kano sought out Funakoshi to incorporate advanced atemi-waza into the Kodokan syllabus.

Kano had an innate understanding of the principle of "off-balancing" and thus, the principle of kuzushi was a key feature in distinguishing judo from its jujitsu parentage, which tended to rely on superior strength and leverage.

According to his children, Kano was the consummate pacifist, and to him, ju jitsu was the antithesis of his concept of Do (the Taoist philosophical concept). It has also been reputed that he sent Mochizuki to study Daito-ryu with Sokaku Takeda and Kenji Tomiki to study (then aiki-budo) aikido with Morihei Ueshiba, in order to bring back such developments back into Kodokan Judo. Kano was reputed to have said that aikido was his ideal "budo".

Because of Kano's background as an educator, and his motivation in taking judo to the sportive level, and ultimately to the Olympics, many of the more "dangerous" techniques were relegated to "kata".

So, in broad terms, "judo" itself was a mixed bag of many different styles of jujitsu, and various innovative developments from an educational perspective. It is said that the term "judo" itself was already in use by such schools as Kito Ryu and Jikishin Ryu, prior to Kano "borrowing" the name. It is for this reason that Kano insisted that the full name for judo, is "Kodokan Judo," to avoid confusion with other schools of "judo" that existed at the time.

So, it would seem that one would be better off studying Kodokan judo (in its original form) than studying jujitsu.


References:
http://www.bstkd.com/JudoHistory/HistoryOne.htm
http://members.aol.com/Cunningham/kanojudo.htm

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#137863 - 05/04/05 01:57 PM Re: Accompanying or Encompassing?? [Re: eyrie]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Thanks Eyrie. That provides a nice piece of historical perspective, and a little insight into Dr. Kano.

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