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#137819 - 05/03/05 10:10 PM funakoshis katas
Sanchin Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I cant find ANY thing on the supposibly Gichin Funakoshi created katas taikyoku shodan nidan sandan. Anyone have any links, or information they could share ?
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#137820 - 05/04/05 04:11 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
laf7773 Offline
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Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What exactly are you looking for? Video? Step by step? Just information about the kata?
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#137821 - 05/04/05 12:50 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Just some info, I already know them, I learned them quite some time ago. I was hoping to find ACTUAL fact about these kata since they are "modern" creations, but all I can find is a dispute between who created them Gichin or Yoshitaka.
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#137822 - 05/04/05 01:30 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
laf7773 Offline
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Loc: Limbo
I haven't seen any reliable information on them either. I'll keep an eye open though.
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#137823 - 05/05/05 07:41 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Sanchin Offline
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Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
This is driving me nuts, does anyone have any clue who actually created these katas ? And could you point to references if so?
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#137824 - 05/06/05 10:50 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
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Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
wow. I can see your frustration. There are lots of conflicting and erroneous info floating around on these kata.

I did manage to find something that is semi-substantial that may lead you in the right direction:
here's the quote:
"The Kyokai does not recognize the Taikyoku (a Kata) and therefore it is not practiced by them. Kyokai says the kata was created by and perfected by Master Gigo (Funakoshi). But this is not true. The Taikyoku is the result of many years of training by many people. Mr. Kuguimiya (Takushoku) is one of those karateka. During the Second World War "Karate-Do Kyohan" was published (the Second Edition), book written by Master Funakoshi, as we all know. In the supplement of that book the author presents the Taikyoku under his own signature. Once that is said I call to your attention one thing: if the Kyokai considers Master Funakoshi as the highest technical counselor and it doesn't practice the Taikyoku, this would be incoherent."

-Master Genshin Hironishi.
President of Shotokai International Association with headquarters in Japan.
The last surviving 5th Dan of the 12 godan karatekas that existed by the end of the Second World War.

source:
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/history/darkest.html


even the article on this site has conflicting info:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=135
"According to Egami (14), of the original 19 kata of the Shotokan designated for study, the three Taikyoku Kata as well as the Ten no Kata (Omote and Ura) were all created by Gigo."
(14) According to Egami on Page 103 of "The Heart of Karatedo"


another conflicting source:
"Funakoshi Yoshitaka created the three Taikyoku Kata, the Taikyoku Shodan, Nidan and Sandan. The French Karate pioneer Henry Plee extended the system later by three Kata, the Taikyoku Yondan, Godan and Rokkudan."
source: http://www.kusunoki.de/kata02_e.html

...and so on the conflicts of info.


also to keep in mind:
Yamaguchi (Goju Kai) added to the Goju system modified Taikyoku Kata.


I tend to believe Hironishi's version of a study group. my best guess of the senior members of this group based on condensing references consisted of (but not limited to):
Gichin Funakoshi
Gigo Funakoshi
Yoshitaka Funakoshi
Shigeru Egami
Genshin Hironishi
Takushoku Kuguimiya
perhaps: Shimoda,Otsuka, Kasuya, Akiba, Shimizu and Hirose.

hope that helps.

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#137825 - 05/06/05 11:50 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sanchin,

I'm curious why the question about the taikyoku kata.

They obviously were created to prepare beginners for Heian study, just a step learning tool. Nothing exceptional about them or something to give much pause.

The accounts which have been given frame the traditional discussion, and Harry Cook in his latest work on Shotokan gives approximately the same description.

Those in Shotokan that use them, at times use them for staging advanced training drills (as exercises) by adding additional techniques, the purpose of which is to create advanced balance training (and a good sweat).

Does the creator matter much?

Of course in the past 100 years, outside of Shito ryu and Isshinryu, most of the kata which have been created were of the beginner category, unless others were ascribed older creators to build 'history'.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#137826 - 05/06/05 05:04 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Thanks for the info kintama.

Victor, why ? well.. ive been practicing these katas for some time now without ever knowing who actually created them. IMHO I believe these katas(original three - the ones i know) have much more worth as combative movements than just mere excercise katas. They are simple kata, exactly how combat should be... simple, .. my theory - less movements to create an infinite amount of technical application. In the end, this will lead to faster reaction time, and I believe a better understanding of mental, physical, and emotional confrontation.

While many can aruge all movements can be broken down to simply straight and circular lines of direction along with the variations of. The movements still need to be developed on different angles and planes of existence.. I believe taikyoku is perfect for this.


Edited by Sanchin (05/06/05 05:07 PM)
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#137827 - 05/07/05 05:56 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
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Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Sanchin,

Ok I understand your interest, but from my perspective it's not that big a deal. Most of the kata's origins are lost in time and just legends remain. In the end it's only their practice that matters.

On the whole I find the advanced kata the real way. The beginning tools are useful at several layers, and logically any technique or technique series is no better than the next, but it is the advanced kata that sing to me.

Their more complex movement patters resonate as life works by their founders. They present more subtle answers to how one can respond to sudden attack, and more complex defenses that the opponent can't readily counter.

Being subtle and complex with skill is a better path in the long run.

Consider the Chinese systems, more specifically the Northern Chinese systems. A system may have more than 100 forms, and as a student studies they keep moving on. Nobody except an instructor keeps working the beginning forms, but they're never lost, those movements form the basis for the advanced.

When I see someone who wants to base their art on a beginning form, I don't doubt it can be effective, I just wonder why they want to remain fixed and ignore such other incredible potentials.

For example in Shotokan or Shorin Ryu one might choose to explore the Kwanku/Kusanku, Gojushiho or Unsu kata for a truly advanced choice.

And other systems have equal examples, such as Goju or Shito-ryu's Superimpe or Seipai, or Isshinryu's SunNuSu.

There is so much the advanced Kata offer someone who truly wants to become un-readable and advanced in their art. Course they get there by the stepping stones along the way too.

Opinion by Victor

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#137828 - 05/07/05 10:04 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
All valid points and I pretty much agree, I do have a soft spot for beginner katas taikyoku, sanchin, naihanchi, pinan. I used to practice kusanku, passai, and rohai .. but I no longer do because I find the beginner katas have everything the others do, except it "spells it out" better for the way I learn... I hope that makes sense... cause it almost doesnt to me!! lol Not only that, but I believe a true understanding of one technique will reveal the principles of all techniques at a single glance, I actually think Gichin Funakoshi said this I dont recall at this time.
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#137829 - 05/07/05 10:06 AM http://www.aibudo.com/history/shotokan/gichin.html [Re: Sanchin]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Here we go, the qoute is in here... I would of posted it.. but it ends up its a picture of text ..

http://www.aibudo.com/history/shotokan/gichin.html
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#137830 - 05/12/05 01:34 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
The Takiyoku kata have little combat merit. They were created for kids, not for self-preservation. Kata like the Pinan were already in place for use as intro forms. If the basic form was formulated by a great pioneer or karate man like Chibana, Miyagi or Itosu then I could see some value in it, but some sell-outs looking to dopplegang a tried and true MA for their own personal agendas? I ain't with it and never will be.

More kata means more money (just like more belts). Why water it down anymore? Now that I look back at things, I learned Kihon Kata Ichi through San and even though they were invented by Choshin Chibana for use to teach kids, the Pinan and even Naihanchi were already there for that purpose. Those kata were completely unnecessary and I'd never teach them or any of the newer kihon forms (Fugyugata/Geikisai Ichi, Takiyoku or the Kihon Kata).

You can make things fit that shouldn't necessarily correspond, like using Takiyoku for SD, but that wasn't their purpose and I don't think Funakoshi's son even had an idea what real karate was. If they all thought that "Karate-do Kyohan" was an evolutionary step up for karate they were sadly mistaken and the proof is in the proverbial pudding. Look at the reputation karate has nowadays. This is why people laugh at grown folks doing karate. How are you going to be over 13 practicing kata made for school-aged children? Think about things don't just do.

If your intent is to perpetuate more drift and Japanese pseudo combat sport, less power to you. If it's to preserve the essence-- mature actualization, Rykyuan culture and solid self-defense tactics as best as possible (unless change is needed), I'm with you. The former position is just hard for me to understand.

I'm with Funakoshi Gichin O'Sensei. Takiyo-who?


Edited by Multiversed (05/12/05 01:38 PM)

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#137831 - 05/12/05 08:22 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Multiversed]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I have a slightly different take on the Takiyoku kata.

The really weren't developed for school children. The Pinan kata were developed to train secondary (high school) children in a karate activity.

But when Funakoshi taught in Japan his focus was on groups like university students and the naval war college (if my memory serves me correctly. Now perhaps some will equate university with school, but I think that conveys the wrong intent.

I think the issue was the Okinawan mentor process just didn't work with large groups of students, to help them adjust to the training, where the instructo(s) didn't have the time for the necessary personal correction.

And the Pinan/Heian kata really were not an efficient way to begin large groups of students. Another answer was needed.

So the Takiyoku kata came into being. A way to indoctrinate large groups of students into correct class conduct, and techniques that could lead into the Heian kata, and so forth.

In and of themselvestI don't think much of the Takiyoku kata, but I can undestand why they were attempted.

In fact upon Funakoshi's death they were a focal reason why the Shotokan students split into the JKA and the Shotokai. Certainly not the prime mover, but a simple answer of yes or no.

Do they have uses, yep, I can use them for a great series of balance drills by adding technique upon technique (which came from a Shotokan instructor and parallels the 10 kata created in Okinawa in the mid 30's, documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate, and never formally adopted by any school, yet likely influenced what the JKA seniors could do wit the Takiyoku for advanced training.

The real issue isn't they were watered down for kids, it's they were created to do the wrong thing, come up with a way to replace mentoring, the real path of karate.

No tool is without merit, even if the merit isn't one I'm interested in.
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#137832 - 05/14/05 10:05 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Do they have uses, yep, I can use them for a great series of balance drills by adding technique upon technique (which came from a Shotokan instructor and parallels the 10 kata created in Okinawa in the mid 30's, documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate, and never formally adopted by any school, yet likely influenced what the JKA seniors could do wit the Takiyoku for advanced training.





What are the names of these 10 kata ?
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#137833 - 05/14/05 11:05 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sanchin,

Off hand (without spending 1/2 a day digging out material on them) they were something like the Promotional Kata. I know there were several articles on the mid 1930's on Okinawa several years ago.

First Nagamine and Miyagi were asked to create two beginnign forms. The result was the Fuygata Sho and Ni kata. Nagamine created the Sho and Miyagi created the Ni (later to be his Geseki Sho - but differening accounts on the creation exist I just know the Nagamine group continue using both as as their beginning kata.

A year or so after that, say 35 or 36, another group of instrutors were asked to create a set of beginning forms, the purpose was for the general populace, perhaps as the Chinese do group Tai Chi, for overall health. The accounts state nobody adopted the kata for their style.

But in the Nakasone 1938 Encyclopedia of Karate there are 10 basic kata shown, and the assumption must be they were those kata.

When I spent 10 years training in Shotokan, one night the isntructor did an advanced drill taking the Takoyoku kata and building move after move in succesive versiosn, crafted quite an advanced drill for balance in technique execution.

When I saw Nakasone's book the drill he used was remarkably similar to those 10 progressive kata. And having done something similar I understood what they could be used for. I would theorize the text being pulished in Japan, likely had the impact on becoming a drill for advanced Shotokan drills.

The kata are interesting, but I can see no value for trying to use them for students, but the advanced drill is always something to pull out of the hat for dan training.

My belief is their creation was likely to create a public art based on their karate tradition.

And of course they weren't created for school children, rather everyone young and old, trying to imitate the Chinese Tai Chi groups for health.

Remember I'm just pulling this out of memory, and I hope I haven't distorted things too much.

On a separate note Nakasone's 1938 Encyclopedia of Karate is one of the truly fascinating texts. Nakasone was an Okinawan business man who didn't do karate, but loved the Okinawan arts. This book was one of several he sponsored to help spread his culture. It is a treasure, and links up with Mutsu's 1933 work on the Okinawan karate arts as truly invaluable texts. Along with Funakoshi's first books, Mabuni's writings and Motobu's, a true link to earlier karate tradition is found.

Hopefully within a few years translations of Mutsu's and Nakasone's work will be available.

Many questions about what was in karate will be put to rest.
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#137834 - 05/16/05 10:28 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Dan_66 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 127
Loc: Canada
Sanchin your post realy interests me. I have studied Shotokan karate for 6 years I know taikyoku shodan of course as this is the first entrance kate at white belt level. But I have never herd of the taikyoku nidan, sandan kata only the Heian katas. I have read many books as well and never seen refference to these two kata. I guess my question is what are tthey can you describe them please.
Dan
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#137835 - 05/18/05 11:27 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

I have a slightly different take on the Takiyoku kata.

The really weren't developed for school children. The Pinan kata were developed to train secondary (high school) children in a karate activity.

But when Funakoshi taught in Japan his focus was on groups like university students and the naval war college (if my memory serves me correctly. Now perhaps some will equate university with school, but I think that conveys the wrong intent.

I think the issue was the Okinawan mentor process just didn't work with large groups of students, to help them adjust to the training, where the instructo(s) didn't have the time for the necessary personal correction.

And the Pinan/Heian kata really were not an efficient way to begin large groups of students. Another answer was needed.

So the Takiyoku kata came into being. A way to indoctrinate large groups of students into correct class conduct, and techniques that could lead into the Heian kata, and so forth.

In and of themselvestI don't think much of the Takiyoku kata, but I can undestand why they were attempted.






I think you are just guessing. There were only three Takiyoku kata made with the sole intent to introduce the beginner to a set of forms which will prepare them for the more advanced Pinan/Heian series. This is what they were created for. If the Pinan kids kata were too tough for the Shotokan stylist, would you call them adult forms? How can you? Nowadays and back then the beginners were children (below 18), with no background in karate or kata (usually). In order to get the beginners then and now (mostly children BTW) use to doing forms the Takiyoku were created for this purpose.

Most Shotokan schools whatever their affiliation don't use these kata and see them as supplementary, because they are. They are truly kids kata. Look things up, talk to modern day Shotokan-ka or read, rather than try and guess what you think they are.

They have little training value or merit but can increase a curriculum and increase $$$$$$!

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#137836 - 05/20/05 05:28 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Multiversed]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Bryan,

No I wasn't guessing, just applied logic.

First the Takiyoku kata were developed just prior or during WWII. Using Harry Cooks indepth study of Shotokan, there was reference to them being listed on the Shotokan Dojo wall during WWII.

At that period the Shotokan folks were not teaching youth. So the kata were not developed to teach school kids. My first line of inquiry leads me to accept that dealing with large groups of beginners, it was easier to have simpler kata for large group instruction.

Second, Mr. Cook was quite clear for the years after WWII till his death in 58, the Takiyoku kata were the ones incessantly taught by Funakoshi Sensei. Students report spending months and months in instruction with him and only Takiyoku ShoDan being studied over and over.

From his autobiography that's how he was trained as a beginner on Okinawa on the Naihanchi, incessent non-stop repetition.

As to why, tradition is one answer, another Funakoshi was not personally enamored with learning more and more kata, and perhaps felt really getting very, very good at one was more important. A level of training most today are not really competent to discuss, unless your instructor spent say 5 years working on one kata with you non-stop. I wasn't trained that way, but intellectually I understand it is a path.

There is a large distinction between how the originator (wheter created by him, or created with his direction) saw the kata's use, and how he used it, and then how it was used afterwards.

The historical record points that Funakoshi wasn't interested in the kata as a beginners kata, the way anyone considers a beginners kata today.

Of course, following a different tradition, I don't use the Takiyoku kata or the Pinan kata, because they're necessary to teach great karate, and they're not the "TRUE" karate tradition.

But I have tools that can make any of them quite interesting drilling exercises for the most competent. Teach one how to take anyone apart with any of them. Of course thats a different topic, how to use real karate.

More interesting, if one really want's to speculate, the Promotional Kata developed on Okinawa and published in Japan in Nakasone's Encyclopedia of Karate, in 1938, might have been pre-cursors to the Tak. kata? Or they may have been simultaneous developments at the same time in different places.

All one has is what remains of the historical record, and applied logic.

But schoolboy kata, that's really an argument how they were later used, not what they were created for.

IMVHO,
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#137837 - 08/22/05 10:20 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
this link shows every kata funakoshi invented
http://www.ozwebart.com.au/kua/kata.htm
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#137838 - 08/23/05 07:04 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
McSensei Offline
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Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Coming into this thread with an interest in real life SD training, I've got to agree with sanchin. I think these kata have great value because of their simplicity. The applications that I have got from these kata are exactly the kind of moves needed in an adrenaline charged situation, with it's inherent loss of fine motor skills. Granted they may lack the style and destructiveness of more advanced kata, but they do contain techniques to win fights in a more, shall we say, common way. Not necesarily breaking limbs and throat strikes, but more pull off balance, punch to the head type stuff. Probably a lot more useful to your average once/twice a week student. Having said that they do include basic body drops as well which still works with the principles of other kata in that they give high regard to the controlling of an opponent to the floor and finishing there.
Every time I think I've wrung out everything I can, something else will have me wondering.
Ain't kata great?

Doh! I've just realised how old this thread is.
I think it was deader than disco.


Edited by McSensei (08/23/05 09:40 PM)
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#137839 - 10/03/05 02:33 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
roniwankan Offline
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Registered: 08/31/05
Posts: 99
Loc: Brazil, Goias
This is a spanish site, anyway what matters is the pictures:
www.karatekas.com
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#137840 - 10/19/05 02:58 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: McSensei]
dogfacedboyuk1 Offline
Member

Registered: 10/19/05
Posts: 116
If anyone is reading this thread and interested, E.J Harrisons 1959 book "The Manual of Karate" based on the work of Reikichi Oya contains reference and details/illustrations on Ten-No-Kata up to Ura No 6. ISBN is 0-572-00063-4.After reading through it I think that Ten-No-Kata is certainly a very good basic training method although I was surprised that it is in fact no more than a kumite drill and not a kata in the normal sense at all. It's name is pretty misleading.

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