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#137829 - 05/07/05 10:06 AM http://www.aibudo.com/history/shotokan/gichin.html [Re: Sanchin]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Here we go, the qoute is in here... I would of posted it.. but it ends up its a picture of text ..

http://www.aibudo.com/history/shotokan/gichin.html
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#137830 - 05/12/05 01:34 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
The Takiyoku kata have little combat merit. They were created for kids, not for self-preservation. Kata like the Pinan were already in place for use as intro forms. If the basic form was formulated by a great pioneer or karate man like Chibana, Miyagi or Itosu then I could see some value in it, but some sell-outs looking to dopplegang a tried and true MA for their own personal agendas? I ain't with it and never will be.

More kata means more money (just like more belts). Why water it down anymore? Now that I look back at things, I learned Kihon Kata Ichi through San and even though they were invented by Choshin Chibana for use to teach kids, the Pinan and even Naihanchi were already there for that purpose. Those kata were completely unnecessary and I'd never teach them or any of the newer kihon forms (Fugyugata/Geikisai Ichi, Takiyoku or the Kihon Kata).

You can make things fit that shouldn't necessarily correspond, like using Takiyoku for SD, but that wasn't their purpose and I don't think Funakoshi's son even had an idea what real karate was. If they all thought that "Karate-do Kyohan" was an evolutionary step up for karate they were sadly mistaken and the proof is in the proverbial pudding. Look at the reputation karate has nowadays. This is why people laugh at grown folks doing karate. How are you going to be over 13 practicing kata made for school-aged children? Think about things don't just do.

If your intent is to perpetuate more drift and Japanese pseudo combat sport, less power to you. If it's to preserve the essence-- mature actualization, Rykyuan culture and solid self-defense tactics as best as possible (unless change is needed), I'm with you. The former position is just hard for me to understand.

I'm with Funakoshi Gichin O'Sensei. Takiyo-who?


Edited by Multiversed (05/12/05 01:38 PM)

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#137831 - 05/12/05 08:22 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Multiversed]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
I have a slightly different take on the Takiyoku kata.

The really weren't developed for school children. The Pinan kata were developed to train secondary (high school) children in a karate activity.

But when Funakoshi taught in Japan his focus was on groups like university students and the naval war college (if my memory serves me correctly. Now perhaps some will equate university with school, but I think that conveys the wrong intent.

I think the issue was the Okinawan mentor process just didn't work with large groups of students, to help them adjust to the training, where the instructo(s) didn't have the time for the necessary personal correction.

And the Pinan/Heian kata really were not an efficient way to begin large groups of students. Another answer was needed.

So the Takiyoku kata came into being. A way to indoctrinate large groups of students into correct class conduct, and techniques that could lead into the Heian kata, and so forth.

In and of themselvestI don't think much of the Takiyoku kata, but I can undestand why they were attempted.

In fact upon Funakoshi's death they were a focal reason why the Shotokan students split into the JKA and the Shotokai. Certainly not the prime mover, but a simple answer of yes or no.

Do they have uses, yep, I can use them for a great series of balance drills by adding technique upon technique (which came from a Shotokan instructor and parallels the 10 kata created in Okinawa in the mid 30's, documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate, and never formally adopted by any school, yet likely influenced what the JKA seniors could do wit the Takiyoku for advanced training.

The real issue isn't they were watered down for kids, it's they were created to do the wrong thing, come up with a way to replace mentoring, the real path of karate.

No tool is without merit, even if the merit isn't one I'm interested in.
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#137832 - 05/14/05 10:05 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Quote:

Do they have uses, yep, I can use them for a great series of balance drills by adding technique upon technique (which came from a Shotokan instructor and parallels the 10 kata created in Okinawa in the mid 30's, documented in the 1938 encyclopedia of karate, and never formally adopted by any school, yet likely influenced what the JKA seniors could do wit the Takiyoku for advanced training.





What are the names of these 10 kata ?
_________________________
"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#137833 - 05/14/05 11:05 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Sanchin,

Off hand (without spending 1/2 a day digging out material on them) they were something like the Promotional Kata. I know there were several articles on the mid 1930's on Okinawa several years ago.

First Nagamine and Miyagi were asked to create two beginnign forms. The result was the Fuygata Sho and Ni kata. Nagamine created the Sho and Miyagi created the Ni (later to be his Geseki Sho - but differening accounts on the creation exist I just know the Nagamine group continue using both as as their beginning kata.

A year or so after that, say 35 or 36, another group of instrutors were asked to create a set of beginning forms, the purpose was for the general populace, perhaps as the Chinese do group Tai Chi, for overall health. The accounts state nobody adopted the kata for their style.

But in the Nakasone 1938 Encyclopedia of Karate there are 10 basic kata shown, and the assumption must be they were those kata.

When I spent 10 years training in Shotokan, one night the isntructor did an advanced drill taking the Takoyoku kata and building move after move in succesive versiosn, crafted quite an advanced drill for balance in technique execution.

When I saw Nakasone's book the drill he used was remarkably similar to those 10 progressive kata. And having done something similar I understood what they could be used for. I would theorize the text being pulished in Japan, likely had the impact on becoming a drill for advanced Shotokan drills.

The kata are interesting, but I can see no value for trying to use them for students, but the advanced drill is always something to pull out of the hat for dan training.

My belief is their creation was likely to create a public art based on their karate tradition.

And of course they weren't created for school children, rather everyone young and old, trying to imitate the Chinese Tai Chi groups for health.

Remember I'm just pulling this out of memory, and I hope I haven't distorted things too much.

On a separate note Nakasone's 1938 Encyclopedia of Karate is one of the truly fascinating texts. Nakasone was an Okinawan business man who didn't do karate, but loved the Okinawan arts. This book was one of several he sponsored to help spread his culture. It is a treasure, and links up with Mutsu's 1933 work on the Okinawan karate arts as truly invaluable texts. Along with Funakoshi's first books, Mabuni's writings and Motobu's, a true link to earlier karate tradition is found.

Hopefully within a few years translations of Mutsu's and Nakasone's work will be available.

Many questions about what was in karate will be put to rest.
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victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#137834 - 05/16/05 10:28 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Dan_66 Offline
Member

Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 127
Loc: Canada
Sanchin your post realy interests me. I have studied Shotokan karate for 6 years I know taikyoku shodan of course as this is the first entrance kate at white belt level. But I have never herd of the taikyoku nidan, sandan kata only the Heian katas. I have read many books as well and never seen refference to these two kata. I guess my question is what are tthey can you describe them please.
Dan
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#137835 - 05/18/05 11:27 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Multiversed Offline
Banned

Registered: 03/11/03
Posts: 642
Loc: Sa, Tx. USA
Quote:

I have a slightly different take on the Takiyoku kata.

The really weren't developed for school children. The Pinan kata were developed to train secondary (high school) children in a karate activity.

But when Funakoshi taught in Japan his focus was on groups like university students and the naval war college (if my memory serves me correctly. Now perhaps some will equate university with school, but I think that conveys the wrong intent.

I think the issue was the Okinawan mentor process just didn't work with large groups of students, to help them adjust to the training, where the instructo(s) didn't have the time for the necessary personal correction.

And the Pinan/Heian kata really were not an efficient way to begin large groups of students. Another answer was needed.

So the Takiyoku kata came into being. A way to indoctrinate large groups of students into correct class conduct, and techniques that could lead into the Heian kata, and so forth.

In and of themselvestI don't think much of the Takiyoku kata, but I can undestand why they were attempted.






I think you are just guessing. There were only three Takiyoku kata made with the sole intent to introduce the beginner to a set of forms which will prepare them for the more advanced Pinan/Heian series. This is what they were created for. If the Pinan kids kata were too tough for the Shotokan stylist, would you call them adult forms? How can you? Nowadays and back then the beginners were children (below 18), with no background in karate or kata (usually). In order to get the beginners then and now (mostly children BTW) use to doing forms the Takiyoku were created for this purpose.

Most Shotokan schools whatever their affiliation don't use these kata and see them as supplementary, because they are. They are truly kids kata. Look things up, talk to modern day Shotokan-ka or read, rather than try and guess what you think they are.

They have little training value or merit but can increase a curriculum and increase $$$$$$!

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#137836 - 05/20/05 05:28 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Multiversed]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3220
Loc: Derry, NH
Bryan,

No I wasn't guessing, just applied logic.

First the Takiyoku kata were developed just prior or during WWII. Using Harry Cooks indepth study of Shotokan, there was reference to them being listed on the Shotokan Dojo wall during WWII.

At that period the Shotokan folks were not teaching youth. So the kata were not developed to teach school kids. My first line of inquiry leads me to accept that dealing with large groups of beginners, it was easier to have simpler kata for large group instruction.

Second, Mr. Cook was quite clear for the years after WWII till his death in 58, the Takiyoku kata were the ones incessantly taught by Funakoshi Sensei. Students report spending months and months in instruction with him and only Takiyoku ShoDan being studied over and over.

From his autobiography that's how he was trained as a beginner on Okinawa on the Naihanchi, incessent non-stop repetition.

As to why, tradition is one answer, another Funakoshi was not personally enamored with learning more and more kata, and perhaps felt really getting very, very good at one was more important. A level of training most today are not really competent to discuss, unless your instructor spent say 5 years working on one kata with you non-stop. I wasn't trained that way, but intellectually I understand it is a path.

There is a large distinction between how the originator (wheter created by him, or created with his direction) saw the kata's use, and how he used it, and then how it was used afterwards.

The historical record points that Funakoshi wasn't interested in the kata as a beginners kata, the way anyone considers a beginners kata today.

Of course, following a different tradition, I don't use the Takiyoku kata or the Pinan kata, because they're necessary to teach great karate, and they're not the "TRUE" karate tradition.

But I have tools that can make any of them quite interesting drilling exercises for the most competent. Teach one how to take anyone apart with any of them. Of course thats a different topic, how to use real karate.

More interesting, if one really want's to speculate, the Promotional Kata developed on Okinawa and published in Japan in Nakasone's Encyclopedia of Karate, in 1938, might have been pre-cursors to the Tak. kata? Or they may have been simultaneous developments at the same time in different places.

All one has is what remains of the historical record, and applied logic.

But schoolboy kata, that's really an argument how they were later used, not what they were created for.

IMVHO,
_________________________
victor smith bushi no te isshinryu offering free instruction for 30 years

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#137837 - 08/22/05 10:20 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Shotokan_Nut Offline
Member

Registered: 08/22/05
Posts: 43
Loc: Liverpool, England
this link shows every kata funakoshi invented
http://www.ozwebart.com.au/kua/kata.htm
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"There Are Many Imitations, But Only One Shotokan" Gichin Funakoshi

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#137838 - 08/23/05 07:04 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
McSensei Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 1068
Loc: Kent, England
Coming into this thread with an interest in real life SD training, I've got to agree with sanchin. I think these kata have great value because of their simplicity. The applications that I have got from these kata are exactly the kind of moves needed in an adrenaline charged situation, with it's inherent loss of fine motor skills. Granted they may lack the style and destructiveness of more advanced kata, but they do contain techniques to win fights in a more, shall we say, common way. Not necesarily breaking limbs and throat strikes, but more pull off balance, punch to the head type stuff. Probably a lot more useful to your average once/twice a week student. Having said that they do include basic body drops as well which still works with the principles of other kata in that they give high regard to the controlling of an opponent to the floor and finishing there.
Every time I think I've wrung out everything I can, something else will have me wondering.
Ain't kata great?

Doh! I've just realised how old this thread is.
I think it was deader than disco.


Edited by McSensei (08/23/05 09:40 PM)
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