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#137819 - 05/03/05 10:10 PM funakoshis katas
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I cant find ANY thing on the supposibly Gichin Funakoshi created katas taikyoku shodan nidan sandan. Anyone have any links, or information they could share ?
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"Everything is already, and always will be given" - Our New Pope. B

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#137820 - 05/04/05 04:11 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
What exactly are you looking for? Video? Step by step? Just information about the kata?
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#137821 - 05/04/05 12:50 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Just some info, I already know them, I learned them quite some time ago. I was hoping to find ACTUAL fact about these kata since they are "modern" creations, but all I can find is a dispute between who created them Gichin or Yoshitaka.
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#137822 - 05/04/05 01:30 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I haven't seen any reliable information on them either. I'll keep an eye open though.
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#137823 - 05/05/05 07:41 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: laf7773]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
This is driving me nuts, does anyone have any clue who actually created these katas ? And could you point to references if so?
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#137824 - 05/06/05 10:50 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Kintama Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 2724
Loc: Massachusetts
wow. I can see your frustration. There are lots of conflicting and erroneous info floating around on these kata.

I did manage to find something that is semi-substantial that may lead you in the right direction:
here's the quote:
"The Kyokai does not recognize the Taikyoku (a Kata) and therefore it is not practiced by them. Kyokai says the kata was created by and perfected by Master Gigo (Funakoshi). But this is not true. The Taikyoku is the result of many years of training by many people. Mr. Kuguimiya (Takushoku) is one of those karateka. During the Second World War "Karate-Do Kyohan" was published (the Second Edition), book written by Master Funakoshi, as we all know. In the supplement of that book the author presents the Taikyoku under his own signature. Once that is said I call to your attention one thing: if the Kyokai considers Master Funakoshi as the highest technical counselor and it doesn't practice the Taikyoku, this would be incoherent."

-Master Genshin Hironishi.
President of Shotokai International Association with headquarters in Japan.
The last surviving 5th Dan of the 12 godan karatekas that existed by the end of the Second World War.

source:
http://www.shotokai.com/ingles/history/darkest.html


even the article on this site has conflicting info:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=135
"According to Egami (14), of the original 19 kata of the Shotokan designated for study, the three Taikyoku Kata as well as the Ten no Kata (Omote and Ura) were all created by Gigo."
(14) According to Egami on Page 103 of "The Heart of Karatedo"


another conflicting source:
"Funakoshi Yoshitaka created the three Taikyoku Kata, the Taikyoku Shodan, Nidan and Sandan. The French Karate pioneer Henry Plee extended the system later by three Kata, the Taikyoku Yondan, Godan and Rokkudan."
source: http://www.kusunoki.de/kata02_e.html

...and so on the conflicts of info.


also to keep in mind:
Yamaguchi (Goju Kai) added to the Goju system modified Taikyoku Kata.


I tend to believe Hironishi's version of a study group. my best guess of the senior members of this group based on condensing references consisted of (but not limited to):
Gichin Funakoshi
Gigo Funakoshi
Yoshitaka Funakoshi
Shigeru Egami
Genshin Hironishi
Takushoku Kuguimiya
perhaps: Shimoda,Otsuka, Kasuya, Akiba, Shimizu and Hirose.

hope that helps.

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#137825 - 05/06/05 11:50 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Sanchin,

I'm curious why the question about the taikyoku kata.

They obviously were created to prepare beginners for Heian study, just a step learning tool. Nothing exceptional about them or something to give much pause.

The accounts which have been given frame the traditional discussion, and Harry Cook in his latest work on Shotokan gives approximately the same description.

Those in Shotokan that use them, at times use them for staging advanced training drills (as exercises) by adding additional techniques, the purpose of which is to create advanced balance training (and a good sweat).

Does the creator matter much?

Of course in the past 100 years, outside of Shito ryu and Isshinryu, most of the kata which have been created were of the beginner category, unless others were ascribed older creators to build 'history'.

Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu

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#137826 - 05/06/05 05:04 PM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
Thanks for the info kintama.

Victor, why ? well.. ive been practicing these katas for some time now without ever knowing who actually created them. IMHO I believe these katas(original three - the ones i know) have much more worth as combative movements than just mere excercise katas. They are simple kata, exactly how combat should be... simple, .. my theory - less movements to create an infinite amount of technical application. In the end, this will lead to faster reaction time, and I believe a better understanding of mental, physical, and emotional confrontation.

While many can aruge all movements can be broken down to simply straight and circular lines of direction along with the variations of. The movements still need to be developed on different angles and planes of existence.. I believe taikyoku is perfect for this.


Edited by Sanchin (05/06/05 05:07 PM)
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#137827 - 05/07/05 05:56 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Sanchin]
Victor Smith Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/01/00
Posts: 3219
Loc: Derry, NH
Hi Sanchin,

Ok I understand your interest, but from my perspective it's not that big a deal. Most of the kata's origins are lost in time and just legends remain. In the end it's only their practice that matters.

On the whole I find the advanced kata the real way. The beginning tools are useful at several layers, and logically any technique or technique series is no better than the next, but it is the advanced kata that sing to me.

Their more complex movement patters resonate as life works by their founders. They present more subtle answers to how one can respond to sudden attack, and more complex defenses that the opponent can't readily counter.

Being subtle and complex with skill is a better path in the long run.

Consider the Chinese systems, more specifically the Northern Chinese systems. A system may have more than 100 forms, and as a student studies they keep moving on. Nobody except an instructor keeps working the beginning forms, but they're never lost, those movements form the basis for the advanced.

When I see someone who wants to base their art on a beginning form, I don't doubt it can be effective, I just wonder why they want to remain fixed and ignore such other incredible potentials.

For example in Shotokan or Shorin Ryu one might choose to explore the Kwanku/Kusanku, Gojushiho or Unsu kata for a truly advanced choice.

And other systems have equal examples, such as Goju or Shito-ryu's Superimpe or Seipai, or Isshinryu's SunNuSu.

There is so much the advanced Kata offer someone who truly wants to become un-readable and advanced in their art. Course they get there by the stepping stones along the way too.

Opinion by Victor

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#137828 - 05/07/05 10:04 AM Re: funakoshis katas [Re: Victor Smith]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
All valid points and I pretty much agree, I do have a soft spot for beginner katas taikyoku, sanchin, naihanchi, pinan. I used to practice kusanku, passai, and rohai .. but I no longer do because I find the beginner katas have everything the others do, except it "spells it out" better for the way I learn... I hope that makes sense... cause it almost doesnt to me!! lol Not only that, but I believe a true understanding of one technique will reveal the principles of all techniques at a single glance, I actually think Gichin Funakoshi said this I dont recall at this time.
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