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#137288 - 02/08/05 02:46 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?


Heck, I myself would LOVE to go there and study. But I think that every non-native student who goes there to learn an art such as ninjitsu, should bear in mind that they will learn ONLY what their teachers allow them to learn.

#137289 - 02/08/05 12:13 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

I really must start this by saying that Laff7773 posted truly in the spirit of friendship and assistance, please do not misconstrue his observations as an attack on you or your teacher.
i have recently moved from a school of MA that i found to be based on deception (not the technique of deception, but the school itself was not genuine).This was a sad discovery for me, and I took every effort to research my new style across a number of resources to establish their credibility and prevent further dissapointment.
I am new to Ninjitsu as a style, if you notice my initial question i too mentioned the Ninja-to (having spoken to my instructor since this post i now know of my mistake). Please look at the site to see info on my school of ninjitsu. It is truly an international organisation, with dojo's all over the world. Its Current Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi is a published (and translated) recognised authority on ninjitsu, its techniques and history. (he being the 34th Grandmaster in a named lineage spanning 900 years). This post is NOT 'my style is better than your style' it is offering you info on a recognised school so that you can compare it to your teachings and come to an informed opinion on the authenticity of what you are studying. All Japanese sword techniques, even basic, originate from a named style or school of kenjutsu. Good wishes to you and your teacher. Cord.

[This message has been edited by Cord (edited 02-08-2005).]

#137290 - 02/08/05 04:19 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
I'll say this again because you don't seem to understand what i've written. I'm NOT saying your teacher is a fraud or that his teachings arenít effective. I did say that with him training in a known fraudulent system he either doesn't know the system has no ties to Japan and is being taken or he does know and is helping to perpetuate it.

You asked why i didn't just give you the answer you were looking for about the iaito. I simply wanted to find out your back ground before answering. My only question was what style of ninjutsu do you study. You should have simply said your not. The reason i asked that question is because generally the practitioners of a legit ninjutsu organization know full well about the ninja-to.

What i was saying about the recognized systems of ninjutsu in Japan and their lineage is this. They do have documentation and they are referenced in older writings. Because the documentation has not been released to certain organization for inspection and verification they are not considered koryu. There are a set few systems of ninjutsu named and recognized in Japan. Konigun and hitaniga ryu, regardless of how it's spelled, are not in that list. This doesn't mean they aren't effective. It only means they aren't what their founders are claiming.

[QUOTE]My point being. Regardless if a form has been referred to in aincient documents or not. YOu got to keep an open mind about these things. Japan has endured ceturies of war and reconstruction. There is no telling what has been spared or trampled down during those conflicts.[/QUOTE]

Are you suggesting that every document mentioning the konigun was destroyed? Then somehow an American training under a man named "Saiji", something he has shown no proof of outside his own word, becomes the head of the system and spends 15 yrs, while partially in prison, translating Japanese text into English, badly i might add. Do you really believe this story? They have been given chances to provide contact information for their instructor in Japan but can't. You might want to make a run through the entire thread this time and not just a couple of pages. Maybe you can ask your instructor for the correct spelling of hitaniga? So far nothing remotely close shows up in Japan.

Since your asking for my experience. I've been training for 23 yrs in various systems. Starting with TKD when i was a kid and moving on to various forms of kempo, karate and jujutsu. I've studied iaido for about 10 years; unfortunately the styles have varied in the last 7 years due to my time in the service. When i joined the Navy i spent the first 5.5 years on one of two ships out to sea. Because of this i've only spent about a month at a time in port so i've been restricted to training with people from the ship. Fortunately i have met several outstanding martial artists from several styles and have had the pleasure of training with them. I've also been privileged enough to be able to train in schools in Australia (found some outstanding instructors there), Hong Kong and Singapore while on port visits. I also was able to train with some very skilled people from various systems while stationed in Japan. I came to shore duty as an instructor a little over a year ago and in the last couple of months have been transferred to base physical security for Point Loma Naval Base. After researching ninjutsu's history and visiting various schools for a year and a half i started train with an informal group in the Bujinkan, which is where i am now.

A little about the ninja-to. Older Japanese swords, pre-tachi and katana, are believed to have been straight. Eventually the Japanese way of forging a blade evolved and came to include differential tempering. This method continued to evolve but always included differential tempering. Because of this the idea of a quality straight blade sword made with these same traditional Japanese methods makes little sense. Prior to the tempering process the blade is straight. It is then coated with a tempering clay and the clay is thinned at the blade edge. The blade is placed in the forge and heated to it's Tmax then in placed in cool water. What this does is change the molecular structure of the steel. The area with less clay, the blade edge, will cool much faster changing the material from austentite to martinsite making the blade edge harder thus maintaining a better edge. This process also causes the blade edge to expand. The area with more clay will cool much slower. As a result the material doesn't turn to martinsite, instead it turns to pearlite which is softer and provides the blade with a little flexibility. Since this side cools slower the spine contracts. With the spine contracting and the blade edge expanding it causes the blade to curve.

With this being the forging method of Japan for hundreds of years i find it hard to believe ninjutsu practitioners would have or want a straight blade. There are those who would say they couldn't afford a quality forged blade. Then "acquire" one. It makes no sense to make your own sword with inferior methods knowing the quality will be MUCH lower than that of the basic katana and therefore be of little use against one. There is also the fact that as a ninja you would not want to be recognized as one. So why carry a weapon that would label you as one from 200 yrds away? If you visit the "ninja museum" in Japan your not going to see one either. There hasn't been a single ninja-to found that wasn't made in the last hundred years, or 50 years for that matter. There were some blades with less of a sori but this was more than likely the result of them being scavenged from katana and shortened. Like i said before the preferred blade in ninjutsu would be similar to having the saya and tsuka from a katana with a wakizashi blade.

How exactly did your ninja-to techniques vary from those you were taught with a katana? Has he told you what style of Japanese sword art he is teaching you?

#137291 - 02/10/05 05:45 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

I read your reply regarding the ninja-to.
To summarize what you have said so far:

No historical evidence that the straight blade ninja-to was ever used in ninjutsu.

An explanation regarding the forging process of japanese swords. Defending the fact that a lower quality straight blade ninja-to vs. higher quality curved katana is not feasable. Are you talking about a duel scenario?

A statement regarding that a ninja would not want to be recognized as one, by carring a weapon that would label them as one from 200 yrds away.

Your first comment...
I'm gonna go out on a limb here. But I think I might have an idea by what you meant by that. In which I will summarize futher in this message.

Second comment...
I do agree with you on the fact that the ninja-to was indeed a lesser quality blade than a katana.
Perhaps maybe the creator(s) of the straight blade ninja-to
did not intend for it be used as blade for dueling but more as a multi-purpose tool?
I don't know if you acknowledge events where ninja were sent on assignments of unseen infiltration or not.
But in such a scenario, a ninja may need such a tool that can support his weight on temporarily. The saya on a wakasahi, being curved, wouldn't be the best choice for such a purpose. It would rock or shimmy too much. Or give out and break? Thus, not very stable. But the saya on a straight blade is able to support human weight or an object of equal weight, for a brief moment. And while on such an assignment, if it came down to a point where a ninja did have to draw his blade, it would be for a quick moment to preserve his life, so he can quickly leave the scene. Not to stay and duel.
That's the only use I can think of, for a ninja-to.

Your third comment, using a weapon that would identify you as a ninja at 200 yds.
I agree with you too on this.
Because I would not pitty the ninja who was careless or even stupid enough to carry any weapon that would indicate him as one... in public. But if he were on an assignment to where he's supposed to utilize skills in being unseen; then it's not even relevant.

Perhaps the "ninja-to" or should I say "ninja tool," would be practical for "ninja assignments." But not so practical in the practice of "ninjitsu" combat and swordsmanship.
Yes, wakasahi with a katana tsuka and saya.
is more appropriate for that. And there is as name for a weapon with those specific features. I have heard it before... I just can't recall it at the moment.

Oh yes to answer your question about how my "ninja-to" techniques vary from the techniques I learned with the katana.

Actually, now that I have thought about it. What I was referring to as ninja-to techniques... would be better to refer them as "ninja-ken" techniques.

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-10-2005).]

#137292 - 02/10/05 04:35 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
MrVigerous Offline
Former Administrator

Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 2498
Loc: UK
In answer to your orginal questions, I would point out that Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama and Shuriken for that matter are prohibited weapons within the UK under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. They are illegal to sell/lend or gift to another person, to import or to manufacture. Therefore you will find it difficult to source these objects legally.

Mr V

#137293 - 02/10/05 04:55 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
Reiki Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 3403
Loc: MiddleEarth
Interesting that they are banned in the UK but we can buy them over the counter here with proof of identity/membership to a MA club.

#137294 - 02/10/05 05:33 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

Make your own rope / chain weapons by using rubber rings/blades, or wooden rings/blades.

There are a lot of plans available for them on the net. As for shuriken, they are illegal in Canada as well, but I have a ton of them at home. You can make them from thick sheet metal using a pair of tin snips. They are SHARP and will stick into most trees if you throw em right. Use a good quality metal and the points won't bend or break so quickly.

Just don't be carrying them around with you, that isn't cool.

Alternatively, go to a pub and ask the bartender for the little cardboard coasters that the beer supplier ships with the kegs. They work great as training shuriken.

It's not really my place to say so, but I would recommend NOT training in the kyoketsu shoge / kusari gama etc. Until you are a member of one of the x-kan's and are being taught by a qualified instructor. You are much more likely to build bad habits than learn how to use the weapon properly, if you try to use them by yourself.

Last but not least, don't worry about impressing people with your knowledge of ninjutsu, especially if you start training in the x-kans. It's best to forget everything everyone ever taught you before, and just start from the beginning. As you get more experience you'll be able to selectively recall which information you used to know is accurate and which is bogus (Sorry to say but it sounds like you just came fresh from a Stephen K. Hayes book, which are not entirely accurate).
The ninja-to argument has gone on since the 80's and probably will never end. If there is any one thing you decide to read in my entire post, I hope it's this: Don't talk about the ninja-to :P [IMG][/IMG]

#137295 - 02/10/05 08:15 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

Yeah, I think I'm going to take paradox's advice.
Apparently "that weapon" has gotten enough "spotlight time" from me and laf7773. Among other subjects.
No hard feelings man, I'm over it.

Nevermind about the question about cold steel, for those that read my question a day ago. I found another subject forum on here regarding their swords. Laf7773 was the MOD in that forum as well, and thus answered my question.

Laf7773, the chisa katana by cold steel, is that a closer replication to what you meantioned before? wakasashi with katana saya and tsuka?

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-11-2005).]

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-13-2005).]

#137296 - 02/11/05 06:51 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MrVigerous:
In answer to your orginal questions, I would point out that Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama and Shuriken for that matter are prohibited weapons within the UK under Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988. They are illegal to sell/lend or gift to another person, to import or to manufacture. Therefore you will find it difficult to source these objects legally.

Mr V

Good point Mr V. I was aware, my question was not worded clearly, i am after 'training' weapons. The site LAFF7773 directed me to has safe legal representations of these things, that i will purchase when fiscaly able.
Paradoxbox,If you read my initial post you will see i am training in a recognised school of ninjitsu. If you read my second post you will see i already acknowledge that I am not experienced enough to begin learning them. I just want them so I can proceed the moment I am deemed ready. Thanks for your concern however.

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