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#137278 - 02/04/05 04:35 AM Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

I have recently started studying Bujinkan Ninjitsu. I have done Iaito for some time so have a Katana already. Staves are easy to source. I would like help sourcing Kyogetsu Shoge, Kusari Gama, kunai, and Tessen. Also if anyone knows of reasonably priced practical Ninja-to, I would be extremely grateful. I am in the UK. Domo.

#137279 - 02/04/05 07:51 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo

There are a few other places but i can't think of any off the top of my head. Ask your instructor who Tim Bathurst is, i'm sure he's heard of him. I'll try and find some other sites for you tonight after i get off patrol.

#137280 - 02/04/05 01:01 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

Thankyou for your help [IMG][/IMG] I only started two weeks ago, so i am ages off being taught how to use the things, but i like to be prepared. Think I remember you posting that you practice bujinkan? I'm in Cambridge, if you ever see a large bald guy at a seminar, with too many tattoos and too little flexibility say high- it will be me [IMG][/IMG] Thanks again.

#137281 - 02/06/05 08:00 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

Hello, I just joined the board tonight.
But, I am looking foward to exchanging info regarding weapons.
I have been looking for a high quality ninja-to that is hand forged, and has at least 800- 1000 folds. Yes, I know that will cost a pretty penny... And I am aware that this may not be obtainable through any retailer. This could very well require contact with a traditional blacksmith who is willing to make it by request. Yeah, you're saying "good luck." But it's worth a try. Bottom line is, i'm just tired of the junk out there. I own a Paul-Chen "practical ninja..." and I won't go any further on that one. LOL
Anyone have any leads?

[This message has been edited by ugokikage (edited 02-13-2005).]

#137282 - 02/06/05 08:40 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo

What "style" of ninjutsu do you study?

#137283 - 02/07/05 02:22 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

I'm very glad you asked. First of all, let me meantion that I am at an early stage of my studies. I do not train under any particular "dojo" or "style" as of now.
My teacher took me in as a apprentice because he liked my reasons for wanting to train in the martial arts. And that is simply to train my mind, body, and spirit.
And so he accepted me as an apprentice.
He told me to immeadiately start studying three main books: The Art of War, The Hagakure, and The Tao te Ching.
I continue to read all three to this very day.
After getting my feet wet in studying, I finally got to train with him. He started me out in the basics, of hand-to-hand, swordsmanship, and stealth
I began to pick up the swordsmanship very quickly. So he decided to train me one full year in the swordsmanship first, and then one full year in hand-to-hand.
The full year of swordsmanship, involved the basics of the Chinese sword forms, The Japanese swords forms, and the European sword forms. His reason for adding the European to the mix... well his philosophy is, if you truly want to learn the way of the sword, learn the styles of these main regions in the world. Which does makes sense.
"To know theyself, is to know others..."
As for the hand-to-hand, he pretty much sticks to the japanese and chinese styles. Which include Tai Chi, Gong-Fu, and yes one style of ninjitsu known as Hitaniga Ryu. Which was taught to him as a small child by his father's side of the family.
He has also studied Konigun Ryu.
However, he has not trained me in that style.
So for the past year and a half i've been reading, training, and meditating.
Gotta love traditional training eh?
Ok, well that's my "biography" regarding my inolvement in the martial arts.

#137284 - 02/07/05 10:44 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo

I hate to be the one to tell you this but that's not traditional training. Konigun ryu isn't a legitimate style. You may want to take a look at this thread on e-budo. During the time the "head" of this system claimed he was off training in konigun he was actually being brought up on counterfeit charges and pleading guilty to burglary.

As for Hitaniga ryu, i nor any of the practitioners i know have ever heard of it. At least 6 of them living and training in Japan now. I think you are being taken.

The reason i asked is because there is no historical evidence that the straight blade "ninja-to" was ever used in ninjutsu. What was used was more of a wakizashi blade with a katana tsuka and saya.

You may want to check some outside sources, maybe run your instructors name across a few well-known ninjutsu forums. You can try e-budo, genbukan has a forum and you can also try

Iím not saying your instructor isnít teaching you anything of value or that heís a fraud. I just donít like to see people being taken advantage of, he may not even know the full extent of it.

#137285 - 02/07/05 04:54 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?


I appreciate your concern for all students who train in any martial arts. But I need to clarify something with you first. When you asked me, "what "style" of ninjitsu do you study?" I gave you an answer telling you what I have trained in. And I said NO particular "dojo" or "ryu." AS OF NOW. Meaning, I was mindful enough to not say "The style of ninjitsu I study is..." Even though I did meantion stealth, those were simply basics.
Also, I said that my teacher trained me in swordsmanship for a full year FIRST. It has been exactly a year and 8 months since
I've started.
So the little stealth and hand-to-hand I have been introduced to so far is just simply that. An introduction. A year of swordsmanship, a little of hand-to-hand, and a little of stealth is NOT ninjitsu.
I am intelligent enough to know better than to call it that. What I will say is II study swordsmanship.
Now, my reasons for asking about a quality ninja-to, aren't all that special. I just simply like it. I like the weight of it, I like it's length. I have started a preference for that weapon, and I want a nice one. That may change in the future, it may not. I figure checking on this forum would be a start to find one.
Now about the Konigun Ryu. I checked your link. And I found few comments worth taking into consideration. For most of it I saw were nothing more than just bashing, and arrogant statements. Which is common on alot forums. For instance, someone was riddiculing the Koniguns on their choice of apparell ".... Japanese MA stylists wearing Chinese clothes and what looks like a fairly poor Chi-gung exercise......Aaaaaaahhhhh well...."
So what if they use sashes... I think it's fairly neat of them to do so. After all Japan's perfection of ninjistu was derived from the Chinese methods of it. Everything has a beginning right? So perhaps their reason for wearing it, is purely symbolistic in recognizing it's origin. That doesn't seem so silly to me.
And the Bryce Dallas pleading guilty to conterfeit charges. I read that little report that elder999 posted. After reading it, it concluded that Bryce plead guilty to something else. But conterfeiting was not the charge. I will look into it further and see what info I can gather from an actual member of konigun, whom I do know other than my teacher, And then I'll check some sources outside of the group. And then make an itelligent conclusion on what really happened.
Now about you never hearing of Hitaniga Ryu. Well that's ok if you never heard of it. I could be mispelling it. Maybe it's Hitoniga. Keep an open mind though. [IMG][/IMG]
And finally, don't you worry about me being taken. Because for starters, I am not paying a dime to him for what I am learning. Running him across "forums" is not gonna do any good.I already know that people will not know who he is. And I'm fine with that. Infact, I don't know who you do I know that you know the full extent of it? I think you're assuming alot of what little you know about me.
I feel confident in what I have been shown so far, because my spirit is much more at ease than before I began training with him. And I managed to do so by finally learning to nurture myself in those three main areas of the human existance. Mind, Body ,and Spirit.

#137286 - 02/07/05 10:12 PM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4065
Loc: Limbo
I'm not making any assumptions on you or your instructor. It is however a fact that konigun ryu is not a legitimate form of ninjutsu. I understand you reservations about listening to some of the people in that thread because they were just being silly and nit picking at little things. The posts that should be taken notice of are from Greg Caplinger, Don Rolley and John Lindsey. Don Roley lives and trains in Japan and has a lot of contacts who could find out if the konigun was legit, he hasn't found anything to support their claims yet. I've asked a few of my friends there about it in the past and none of them cold find anything either. I find it hard to believe that a system could be present all these years and have no documentation in Japan to even show it's existence at any point in time. Then some how be passed to an American who will give no traceable information on exactly what his lineage is.

I've also asked a couple people who have more resources than i about Hitoniga and neither of them could come up with anything in either spelling. The point is if it was a legitimate forum of ninjutsu someone in Japan would have heard about it or at least be able to find it in some resources there.

I understand you say you're not training in ninjutsu, but if your instructor is claiming training in these systems there is an issue. Either he knows they aren't legit and is deceiving you or he doesn't know and has been taken for a ride himself. Being taken in by these kinds of frauds doesn't mean someone is stupid. Anyone could have been taken in by some of these people at some point in their training. A lot of these guys put up a good front. Frank Dux fooled a lot of intelligent people, and still is. It also doesn't mean what is being taught is useless. In some cases there are people who have had good, legitimate training but chose to pretend to be teaching something different for various reasons. Some times it's to make them feel special sometimes it's to cash in on the latest trend.

As it stands there are only a few "legitimate" forms of ninjutsu, and even their lineage is up for speculation. Togakure-ryu Ninpo Happo Biken may be the most popular or common and is said to have originated in the 1100's. While it is recognized as a legitimate system in Japan it's origins and lineage have yet to be proven. You do however find reference to these forms of ninjutsu in older writings.

But since you said you only did sword training for a year, what Japanese sword system or systems were involved?

Unfortunately finding a "quality" ninja-to will be a difficult task. That is depending on your level of quality. Your probably not going to find one made in the same manner as a traditional katana because most smiths who do this type of work only made traditional swords. Since the ninja-to isn't found in Japanese history the chances are slim. You can find some higher end ninja-to but i wouldn't call them quality. More the bottom end of the acceptable.

As for Mr. Dallas. The counterfeit charge and the burglary charges were years apart. He plead guilty to one of six charges against him in '92. The other five charges were dismissed when he entered his guilty plea. The counterfeit charges were from '87. Not exactly a trust worthy guy.

Again i suggest you do some research outside the organization with neutral parties.

#137287 - 02/08/05 02:33 AM Re: Where to buy practical Ninjitsu weapons?

Thanks for answering my question earlier regarding the ninja-to. However, I am curious. Why couldn't you have given me that answer in the first place? Instead of being so adamant in being "concerned" aboutthe training I'm undergoing and whether the koniguns are legit or not, and going even further to make speak negatively about my teacher whom you don't even know?
Anyway, I will answer your question regarding my training in Japanese swordsmanship. Again I will say NO particular style in depth, JUST BASICS. And these baiscs are:
Kendo basics, Katana basics: hard medium, and fast strikes. gaurding, and evading.
Katana with Wakazashi basics. and yes your favorite, basics of the ninja-to. Regardless of wether it's documented as being used in ninjitsu or not. It utilizes the same principles of hard, medium, and fast strikes as the katana. It's just held differently. What I have trained regarding the Japanese basics, does not sound like much by iteself. But remember while I was learning that, I was also learning chinese sword styles, and European.
Learning all of those helped me realize the similarities and how the basics of each are key in establishing a good foundation in swordsmanship. This is a good way to get rooted before I move on to more advanced froms.
I am very interested to know what you have studied as a martial artist. Since you took it upon yourself to go into the history or lack thereof about the ninja-to not being used in ninjitsu. I would like to know what exactly is the origin of the ninja-to? Is it a mere American invention to satisfy American's preconecptions about the Japanese style of ninjitsu? Do you personally find the weapon simply inept?

The Bryce Dallas issue. Like I said before I will inquire further and look at BOTH INSIDE and OUTSIDE sources on what happened. And then make a conclusion. There are two sides to every story, and I find by listening to both, I can truly come to a conclusion. And if find that your clarification regarding the charges in both '87 and '92 are true. Cause you know I will check if they are, Then I'll make my own judgement about the guy.
That is a reply to your "neutral parties" comment.

Your comment about, my teacher claiming systems that aren't even legit. I was careful to tell you that he was NOT training me in Konigun Ryu. I know this for a fact because, I compared the sword techniques in that manual to what I was learning under him. And it was apparent that whatever forms were being taught in that manual weren't anywhere close to what he was teaching me. Just because he studied that style does not mean he teaches it.

As for Hitaniga Ryu.
My spelling is a representation of what my ears hear when my teacher speaks of it.
It could be an elision meaning two or three names or words, being said as one. Hithaniga? Hitohaniga?

As for the Koniguns being legit in Japan? Or even Hithaniga Ryu for that matter.
I am not gonna say your sources aren't correct. As they do have the advantage of getting the truth, figuratively speaking, "straight from the horses mouth." But you said your sources didn't find anything regarding the legitimacy of the Koniguns. In other words, nothing was found regarding them being for real or just a buch of "wannabes?" I would think that high members within that community of ninjitsu in Japan, would be very candid in setting the truth straight on such an acclamation. Yet nothing was said to prove or discount them either way?? Even you said, there some forms that are legit, yet their lineage has not yet been accounted for.
My point being. Regardless if a form has been referred to in aincient documents or not. YOu got to keep an open mind about these things. Japan has endured ceturies of war and reconstruction. There is no telling what has been spared or trampled down during those conflicts.
Consider this perspective as well, and I leave you with this... Please do not take this the wrong way. But your sources in Japan regardless of rank and skill are no doubt experiencing a true honor to go where the art was perfected.

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