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#136773 - 04/23/05 10:58 PM Throwing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Throwing is left out a lot when it comes to street applications and using what works best. Throws can be great fight enders. Besides the fact that just about any throw can be changed a little so the person lands on their head, people just seem to quit after they're thrown down. Something in them just says not to keep going like their ego has been killed. Anyone else work their throwing techniques?

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#432037 - 04/11/11 12:40 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Anonymous]
jdwannabe_5 Offline
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Registered: 04/08/11
Posts: 4
Throws can be good I guess. Judo throws and stuff.

Thing is, regardless of ego damage you can take advantage, ground and pound or whatever, stamp on the guy's nose.

So yeah, maybe some throws are useful. I've not done Judo formally but I've hip tossed slower aggressors. It doesn't happen often but it's useful. I think grappling take downs are more useful maybe (Can't remember the name of one I did in JKD class derived from Philipino styles, but they end up on the floor and you've got their arm trapped) and then you can REALLY end a fight if you're in that position.

Worst part I guess is that anyone who has speed, for instance how anyone jabs, you can't score the clasps, grips, throws etc that you'll need to pull off these moves.

Drunk people attacking you? Throw away.

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#432042 - 04/12/11 03:48 AM Re: Throwing [Re: jdwannabe_5]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432043 - 04/12/11 03:59 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Sorry I love using that ha ha! Welcome to the forums. Throwing can be a useful skill, especially if an attacker has no sense of balance. Particularly foot sweeps, which fall under throws in judo, can be very useful. Here is a great clip of Judo player Dave Camarillo doing some throws in a grappling class. Though Dave has a black belt in BJJ too, he has been doing Judo since he was 4 and his foundation is Judo. Most (though not all) of these moves could be useful in a physical confrontation IMO:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432439 - 05/21/11 07:49 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
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Throws = fun = good. ;-) I like Zombies too.

Throwing ZOMBIES = more fun!

I think JUDO has a lot of function for self-defense. A good judo guy would be hell to deal with in a street fight, especially if he's practiced closing distance against someone throwing strikes!

PS: I would wager that you'd almost have to pull up old threads here anymore. There's nothing new under the sun.

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#432933 - 06/23/11 03:15 AM Re: Throwing [Re: JKogas]
Stormdragon Offline
Who Dares Wins
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Registered: 08/05/04
Posts: 3409
Loc: Salem, OR
Someone said thorws don't work well against a guy who jabs a lot. Not true if you use good punching combos to set up a clinch and then throw, works fine. Trips are really useful on the street and greco or judo throws. Leg attacks can work ok but I'm not a fan of going close to the ground on the street and you might end up breaking your knee.
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#432952 - 06/25/11 12:41 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Stormdragon]
Mark Jordan Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/10
Posts: 138
Loc: Burbank, California
Many people consider Judo as a sport but originally Judo was and is a combat martial art. But with its heavy emphasis on physical conditioning and competition, it soon began to lose connection with its combat origins, and started to focus only on the sporting aspect.

I have personally used judo/jujutsu in a street fight to great effect and it will help you in a self defense situation. But the art of judo was not designed for street fights, it was designed to introduce jujutsu. You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.

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#432955 - 06/25/11 05:45 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Mark Jordan]
Prizewriter Offline
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Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Have to disagree Mark. In Judo we were always taught to protect our neck and collar against grips. In randori you would often see people with their arms high and close to their head, like a boxers guard. People trying to get grips would throw their arms in fast, as though they were doing straight punches. It's common to see people "blocking" arms in Judo as this means their opponent can't grip. Additionally the "alive" manner of Judo training means a person is getting a good understanding of distance and timing and learn how to stay "arms length" away from someone to stop them gripping.

Additionally, a Judo player learns how to grip to tie up a persons arm. The same ideas can be used to stop someone punching (have played about with this in Judo after class).

Finally you seem to be completely disregarding the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu kata. I'm not a huge fan of this Judo Kata, but it makes an attempt to show how a Judo player can deal with punches, kicks and other attacks:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432959 - 06/25/11 04:04 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Judo randori definitely doesn't adress striking, one of the first times I did it I inadvertently ridge handed someone in the face, he made me pay for it! I didn't even try though, his grip and kazushi literally just put my hand there, and being a total noob my body went back to Karate, which is what it knows. The format simply doesn't address strikes..not sure how that could be in dispute.

Judo is a fantastic art and sport, but claiming it addresses striking because some of the grips are high is far fetched to say the least. If you added strikes to Judo, let's say elbows, knees, headbutts to start with it completely changes the way you would do things, the whole setup of randori (find grips, use combo or counter throws) would not function the same if strikes were there.

Of course you could take Judo to these places if you wanted, but the vast majority of places don't, because their focus is on winning competitions, not broader combatives stuff.

Not saying it "wouldn't work on the street" as I think plenty og Judo would, but it is what it is and definitely that is a limitation of most Judo training I have seen...almost 100% focus on winning sport, and it rarely seems to leave that realm.

Quote:
You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.


Are you actually disagreeing with that Prize? As far as I am concerned this is a 100% true statement and can be verified simply by going to a Judo class..the vast majority of them only address what happens in randori with another Judoka, which does not include strikes in any way.

On top of this, alot of the kazushi movements and grip use could actually create an "orbit" (to use a kenpo term) that would magnify the punch you eat. Not trying to be down on Judo at all...just saying everything has it's limitations and Judo's big limitation is that almost exclusively everything you learn is designed to win against another Judoka. Unless you actually play the skills with some concept of striking or broader combatives involved they wouldn't really transfer automatically IMO.

Thought i'd add:

As far as I know Kano himself actually felt that the lack of strikes in Randori was problematic. Where did he write it? I don't remember but i'm fairly certain he mentioned it somewhere or other.

I'm no Judo expert by any means, but I will say as someone with a decent amount of striking experience that the first thing I had to do was unlearn those tendencies..Judo playing creates alot of openings to hit people.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/25/11 04:30 PM)

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#432961 - 06/25/11 08:46 PM Re: Throwing [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
Originally Posted By: Zach_Zinn


Not saying it "wouldn't work on the street" as I think plenty og Judo would, but it is what it is and definitely that is a limitation of most Judo training I have seen...almost 100% focus on winning sport, and it rarely seems to leave that realm.

Quote:
You will not learn to block or evade punches in judo and it works best if you can get close to your opponent.


Are you actually disagreeing with that Prize? As far as I am concerned this is a 100% true statement and can be verified simply by going to a Judo class..the vast majority of them only address what happens in randori with another Judoka, which does not include strikes in any way.



To a certain extent yes. I'm not saying Judo is a great art for blocking strikes. To say that you will learn NOTHING in Judo that will help you avoid being struck is not entirely correct IMO though. The footwork used in Judo is useful in breaking grips and keeping you out of arms reach. Doesn't matter if a person is going to grab you or punch you, if you are out of arms reach neither of those things are going to happen. Additionly as I mentioned, in Judo it is possible to immobilize a persons arms or restrict their movement somewhat, which should reduce the risk of being punched.

For what it is worth I trained in boxing on and off for 8 years. Whereas you Zach see gaps in Judo that mean a Judoka is vunerable to getting hit (and I will admit there are gaps) I see similarities in the way boxers and judoka use footwork to move out of arms reach. I also noticed how difficult it can be to punch if a Judo player gets close and is able to gain certain grips over you and unbalance you.

Having studied both, I think a Judo offers more ways to deal with being struck with punches (or other arm strikes) than the other way round. I'm not saying doing Judo will be as good as boxing for avoiding punches. What I'm saying is there are areas in Judo that would help a person to avoid being struck. Judo players are still vunerable to strikes, but they can avoid strikes or reduce their severity by using skills that are already built in to their training.

As an example of the footwork/body movement in Judo that keeps a person out of arms reach, watch this clip from the excellent Jimmy Pedro/Rhadi Ferguson DVD about grip fighitng. Note how Rhadi moves out of arms reach at around 0:45 to stop Jimmy getting a grip. This same movement could be used to avoid a punch IMO:

_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432962 - 06/26/11 12:53 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Quote:
To a certain extent yes. I'm not saying Judo is a great art for blocking strikes. To say that you will learn NOTHING in Judo that will help you avoid being struck is not entirely correct IMO though. The footwork used in Judo is useful in breaking grips and keeping you out of arms reach. Doesn't matter if a person is going to grab you or punch you, if you are out of arms reach neither of those things are going to happen. Additionly as I mentioned, in Judo it is possible to immobilize a persons arms or restrict their movement somewhat, which should reduce the risk of being punched.


It isn't an art at all for blocking, evading, receiving, reciprocating strikes.

Unless of course the Judoka in question are actually training against strikes while grip fighting. Usually they aren't training like that. It's certainly possible to use the grips to immobilize, but you first need to actually know to deal with actual incoming percussive force, and know how to turn that into grips - a whole different animal than just grip attempts, much of the grip fighting only will work against the grips, and would fare poorly against committed strikes, IMO. That's saying nothing of the fact that throwing a Judoka is gonna be different than throwing a non Judoka who is trying to hit you..


Quote:
As an example of the footwork/body movement in Judo that keeps a person out of arms reach, watch this clip from the excellent Jimmy Pedro/Rhadi Ferguson DVD about grip fighitng. Note how Rhadi moves out of arms reach at around 0:45 to stop Jimmy getting a grip. This same movement could be used to avoid a punch IMO:


Just moving out of reach isn't that great against a dedicated attacker trying to take your head off IMO, other than buy a few seconds, or simply get away. If you are engaging then with lateral movement you may have something. Still just because something can be used a certain way doesn't mean you know how to do something else by default. This is akin to the argument you seein Karate circles sometimes about the "grappling" found in Karate, sure it's there, sure the movements can work, that doesn't mean doing a few arm twistings in a Karate context makes you a grappler.


Quote:
Having studied both, I think a Judo offers more ways to deal with being struck with punches (or other arm strikes) than the other way round.


Judo offers zero in terms of not getting hit, because Judoka don't train against that, or even with that in mind. AS impressed as I was with Judo, I can say unequivocally that they are last the people I would ask at all about striking, blocking strikes etc..it was clearly not part of their skillset at all, and I feel quite confident that my years in Karate would serve me much, much, better than Judo ever could in terms of dealing with strikes...because i learn to deal with strikes with someone hitting me.

Unless the Judo is being trained that way what you are talking about is purely theoretical.

Worse than ranged punches closing the gap is actually what could be done with hitting with elbows an knees in the entry phase of a Judo throw anyway . There are a ton of bad openings for strikes you create when you grip fight and play the Judo chess game...because Judo randori isn't meant to teach a single thing about striking, i'm a little amazed that this notion is being argued against, especially here of all places!

Judo is fantastic at what it does, but to claim it's carries with it automatic success outside of Judo is a flawed argument. What makes Judo so awesome is precisely the fact that the live training is completely focused on that environment, it would not works quite the same in real life.

Another example in keeping with the OP is how kazushi and and throws would have to function outside of Judo. In randori it seems like throws function as counters, or are often set up with combo throws. There two things work because you are fighting another judoka, sure they could be adapted outside of Judo...but the reason they function the way they do is because you are fighting a Judoka.

You can be a complete neophyte and make it really hard for a good Judoka to throw you if you just don't play by the rules...i.e. stall, which of course you get in trouble for in matches..that should tell you something right there about how throwing functions differently in real life chaos than in Judo matches.

This will IMO be closer to what you would actually face than a Judoka who plays the counter for counter game with you..which seems to suggest that the way to use throws in real life is set them up with strikes (again not covered anywhere in Judo randori..but it is in jujutsu), or let them function as purely finding opportunities given to you.You certainly can't run up to someone and drop-knee seionage them without setting it up, and combo throws are pretty predictive to rely on in the chaos of real life.

Again i'm not trying to bag on Judo, what it does it does fantastically well. If we are going to talk about "do throws work on the street" though..probably we should actually talk about how that would work, instead of just seeing Judo as a panacea because it involves live training.

As a disclaimer..i'm trying to stick to the subject here, people can and have used Judo successfully in plenty of real life situations, it CAN be used that way, but if the question is how can it be trained most effectively that way, I think it's probably reasonable to suggest you'd have to take it out of the strictly competitive Judo vs. Judo realm first.

Part of the reason I drone on about this is because my main training partner is a Jujutsu guy, we basically exchange stuff, he learns Karate, and then he teaches me some groundwork, throwing etc. and we work that. We have done a little playing too, it's very fun. So it's a subject I've thought about a decent amount recently, and I find it fascinating.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/26/11 02:39 AM)

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#432966 - 06/26/11 07:49 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Zach_Zinn]
Prizewriter Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 10/23/05
Posts: 2572
You make some good points Zach and I respect that. Judo in no way is a good art to take if you want to avoid being hit. To say it is 100% useless against a striking art in terms of not getting hit I don't agree with. I guess we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but for sure it was a good debate and you made some interesting points. Thanks for that!
_________________________
"Let your food be your medicine, and your medicine be your food" Hippocrates.

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#432971 - 06/27/11 10:27 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
MattJ Offline
Free Rhinoplasty!
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Registered: 11/25/04
Posts: 15634
Loc: York PA. USA
Good debate, guys. I fall a bit more towards PW's side of the argument. Judo can work well against strikers, by virtue of taking the space that strikers need to get their strikes off. Unless the striker in question is super good, or has some grappling experience of his own, they will likely have a hard time once clinched by a judo guy.
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"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#432974 - 06/27/11 05:39 PM Re: Throwing [Re: MattJ]
Zach_Zinn Offline
Veteran

Registered: 12/09/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Olympia, WA
Thinking about it in terms of "can an x beat an x" is flawed I think, that is never the whole story what is happening.

I'm not saying it can't be used like that, i'm saying that by the vast majority of Judoka it isn't used like that, so saying that it can be used against strikes is pointless, since hardly any strict Judoka are doing that, you have no training example to draw from.

I'd also argue a bit with the clinch thing, playing Judo randori (which I didn't do a ton of, but enough to get some general ideas) one of the first things I noticed is I had to actively turn off the part of my brain that looks for strike openings, because the grips and kazushi movements open up a ton of them for you. In some cases if you were fighting a non judoka that decided to just shield their face with an elbow as you set them up for your tai otoshi or whatnot, you would eat the elbow without some major modification. And once again, using Judo on a non Judoka who doesn't want to be thrown, or is much bigger than you..totally different deal than setting up another player with combo throws or counters.

I found what a lot of what I learned in my time doing it extremely valuable, and I didn't even do it that long! However i'm also pretty convinced it would an error to call the training geared towards self defense or some kind of broad real world application, the training is pretty much geared towards winning Judo competition..there may be some intersection, but they aren't the same animal.


Again, i'm not talking about "can a judoka beat a striker, an anything can beat an anything. I'm just talking about conclusions you can probably draw based on training method.

AS far as whether it can be used as is..well, any combat sport training is intense and hands on enough that it will give the practitioner a huge leg up in a real world situation, that isn't quite the same thing as saying the combat sport is good real world self protection training, rugby or football would give plenty of people a leg up too, that doesn't mean it's training geared for that.

Anyway thanks for the talk, it was interesting..and it's a fun area to play with.


Edited by Zach_Zinn (06/27/11 06:00 PM)

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#433081 - 07/05/11 01:12 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Prizewriter]
47MartialMan Offline
Member

Registered: 11/17/04
Posts: 180
Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
You make some good points Zach and I respect that. Judo in no way is a good art to take if you want to avoid being hit. To say it is 100% useless against a striking art in terms of not getting hit I don't agree with. I guess we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but for sure it was a good debate and you made some interesting points. Thanks for that!


I have seen Judoka do well against strikers. If JJ can do well against strikers, so can Judo.

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#433089 - 07/05/11 09:25 AM Re: Throwing [Re: Zach_Zinn]
iaibear Offline
Veteran

Registered: 08/24/05
Posts: 1304
Loc: upstate New York
<< It (Judo) isn't an art at all for blocking, evading, receiving, reciprocating strikes. >>

From an outsider's point of view, those moves are normal for Aikido.

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