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#136170 - 01/18/05 10:52 PM How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Anyone got the answer. Im looking for anything thats grounded in science, like a study on muscle memory or something of that nature. Ive heard all the MA answers. 1000 times. 3000 times. 10000 times. I was wondering if anyone knew the truth.

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#136171 - 01/19/05 12:10 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


around 30 to 40 times if you cant do it now then while you may be able to do it after 1000 times more then likely it will fail. Thats my point of view anyway.

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#136172 - 01/19/05 12:37 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Of course, depends on the student blah blah blah.....

Jim Mather (old geezers like myself may remember him from the show "That's Incredible!", where he used to catch/break arrows shot at him on TV!) has said that it takes something on the order of 100 reps just to acheive "muscle memory", probably around 10,000 to become very proficient and 50,000+ to become world class.

This was from an article in Black Belt magazine from the mid 80's. I may not be totally accurate with the numbers, but it was around there.

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#136173 - 01/19/05 02:22 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Christiancadet Offline
Enthusiast

Registered: 06/08/04
Posts: 553
In wrestling we say you have to doa a move 1000 times to know what it is, to master something you'll have to do it until it works every time on everybody you try it on. JMVHO

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#136174 - 01/19/05 02:22 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Seems rather excessive. %50000 times. Thats a whole lot of training.

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#136175 - 01/19/05 04:13 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Although in my own JKD training, I use to practice a thousand "strikes" a day, I offer you, perhaps, a Zen MA answer: one.

To create a single muscle memory in an action would probably be a weakness. No actual combat could be guaranteed to require that single action.

Thus, you may practice many thousands of strikes a day, but each strike should not be like the previous one, nor the next.

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#136176 - 01/19/05 05:16 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I did say "world class".....meaning in the very top echelon of competition.

Oddly enough, I am trying to remember if he said 50,000 or 250,000 reps for world class.

It was a lot. Am I the only one who knows who Jim Mather is?

15-20 reps a day, 300 days a year for 10 years is roughly 50,000. Practice more, get there faster. I personally noted that I was much better after 10 years than I was when I started! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

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#136177 - 01/19/05 05:58 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


''Jim Mather (old geezers like myself may remember him from the show "That's Incredible!", where he used to catch/break arrows shot at him on TV!) has said that it takes something on the order of 100 reps just to acheive "muscle memory", probably around 10,000 to become very proficient and 50,000+ to become world class.''

I have a problem using the word 'master' when in the context of the martial arts. Since we as human beings are capable of mistakes at anytime, I don't believe one can truely master any techique(s).
Case in point: I had seen some video footage some time ago, of a Japanese 'master' cutting
a melon in half on a man's throat with a sword. This 'master' appeared to be in his mid fifties, and according to the narrator, had done this stunt a thousand times. The end result of the demo led to the man being taken to the hospital (I presume), as his throat had been severed.
Any time a human being is part of the equation, there is always risk of failure.
I know this doesn't answer Chen's question, but I felt it was relevant to the question of mastery.

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#136178 - 01/20/05 04:15 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Anyone got the answer. Im looking for anything thats grounded in science, like a study on muscle memory or something of that nature. Ive heard all the MA answers. 1000 times. 3000 times. 10000 times. I was wondering if anyone knew the truth.[/QUOTE]

i've often wondered that myself. i know that inorder for me to get to champion speed playing pool i had to sink in the neighborhood of at least 1 million balls. thast just good enough to be pro not beat one. i would say it's more of a matter of how long it takes to replace a current muscle reponse with a new one. your probably looking at about two weeks to a month depending on training to replace the response with a new one. i googled looking for a response and fell asleep with all the fascinating insights they had to share. i didnt find much other than it takes time. but from previos personal experience of having looked into this myself a few years back. to truely master a new set of skills or techniques to the point where you own them. your honestly looking at years i'd say around a million would be a good place to start aiming. good luck!

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#136179 - 01/21/05 12:24 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
I remember reading an article some yrs. ago which dealt with handgun fast draw from the holster. The author mentioned a study which stated that proficiency came after 1,000 reps.
Since I can't for the life of me remember the specifics (Title, author, date, etc.), I won't argue if someone calls me a liar!!!

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#136180 - 01/22/05 09:24 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered?
Anonymous
Unregistered


It depends how fast a person can adapt to learning the specific techniques. For some it will take long and others fast to learn a cartain technique. Also for learning techniques, its a good idea to practice with a partner,alot faster learning that way.

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#136181 - 05/07/05 08:23 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Chen Zen]
Orchidweb Offline
Newbie

Registered: 05/07/05
Posts: 18
This is very easy to answer:
Practice doesn't make perfect.
Perfect practice makes perfect.

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#136182 - 05/07/05 09:28 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
MattJ Offline
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Of course, depends on the student blah blah blah.....

Jim Mather (old geezers like myself may remember him from the show "That's Incredible!", where he used to catch/break arrows shot at him on TV!) has said that it takes something on the order of 100 reps just to acheive "muscle memory", probably around 10,000 to become very proficient and 50,000+ to become world class.

This was from an article in Black Belt magazine from the mid 80's. I may not be totally accurate with the numbers, but it was around there.

I did say "world class".....meaning in the very top echelon of competition.
Oddly enough, I am trying to remember if he said 50,000 or 250,000 reps for world class.

It was a lot. Am I the only one who knows who Jim Mather is?

15-20 reps a day, 300 days a year for 10 years is roughly 50,000. Practice more, get there faster. I personally noted that I was much better after 10 years than I was when I started!
_________________________
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#136183 - 05/08/05 02:12 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: MattJ]
Sanchin Offline
Member

Registered: 03/20/05
Posts: 174
I cant remember where I read this, but it stated olympic level athletes have gone through the movements approximately 250,000 times before reaching that level.. how they figured that out, no idea.
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#136184 - 05/08/05 07:05 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Sanchin]
Ace Offline
Member

Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 101
Loc: Melbourne, Australia
What do you consider 'mastered' i know maths is off the subject, but how many times do you have to apply a maths rule before you can do it whenever you want? i think it depends on the individual... but if you want a scientific veiw point, do be able to apply a technique on demand, you must pracise the movement untill it has become a reflex action, refered to as Muscle memory retention, or the ability of the brain to instictively do something because it has been done so many times before.. eg. swing legs out of bed, stand up, start walking. because you have done it so many times, it comes naturally. But, this would depend on what you consider mastering something. having a complete understanding of how, when, where and why to apply a technique, plus the abilty to do this could also be called 'mastering' a technique.

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#136185 - 05/08/05 09:24 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
JoelM Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 6355
Loc: Georgia, USA
A website with a forumla, says to do something 10,000 times, and gives you a chart of how long it will take you. Don't know how true the 10,000 times part is, but puts things into perspective.

http://www2.micro-net.com/~dlmurray/howmuch.html
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#136186 - 05/08/05 10:09 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: JoelM]
MattJ Offline
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Great link, Joel.
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#136187 - 05/09/05 10:27 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Orchidweb]
Fletch1 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 06/21/04
Posts: 2218
Loc: Florida
How about this?

Practice doesn't make Perfect.

Even Perfect Practice doesn't make Perfect.

Perfect Practice just makes you Better.

Better is what you want to be.

Practice something 100, 1000, 10,000 or 1,000,000 times in a static environment. It might appear perfect in that environment. Until it is perfectly integrated and can be done perfectly under the worst of conditions, it is far from perfect.

Worry less about perfection and more about making it work.
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#136188 - 05/23/05 11:34 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
etaks86 Offline
Member

Registered: 04/14/05
Posts: 161
i'm not sure. i would say, that if the technic is very simple than it wouldn't take as many times to make it work good in self defence. as for how many times it takes to master a technic i have no idea, and one of my reasons for this is i don't understand peoples terms such as master, perfect or things like that, i don't believe a move can really ever be perfect or mastered. i'm not sure what standards they use to tell when it's mastered so i'm not sure. i don't know if they tell by how well you use it in a fight or just by how much power and technic is behide it i'm just not sure at all. but i would never say something could be mastered because something can always be improved even if it means by substracting something. but i also would like to know how many times they say you have to do something before it's mastered. and also i'm sorry i couldn't be of much help for this subject.

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#136189 - 05/28/05 06:40 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Fletch1]
BuDoc Offline
The doctor will see you now

Registered: 05/03/05
Posts: 1067
Loc: USA and Abroad
Reminds me of that tootsie roll pop commercial.

How many times must you do a technique before it's mastered?? Let's ask Mr.Owl.

One, Twohoo, Three, CRUNCH... The world may never know

Page
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#136190 - 05/29/05 12:00 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Chen Zen]
Hedgehogey Offline
Member

Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 274
Repetition of dead drills does not translate into effective fighting, no matter how many times you do it.

Hard sparring, directly applicable drills and conditioning do.

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#136191 - 05/29/05 01:49 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Hedgehogey]
SANCHIN31 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 12/26/04
Posts: 3783
Loc: Arkansas, U.S.
Repitition of dumb comments does not translate into debating.
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#136192 - 05/29/05 10:57 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Hedgehogey]
MattJ Offline
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Registered: 11/25/04
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Loc: York PA. USA
Quote by Hedgehogey -

Quote:

Hard sparring, directly applicable drills and conditioning do




What? You don't repeat that stuff? I guess in one sparring session I can become t3h d34dly?

I know I was in fact refering to that kind of stuff as well.
_________________________
"In case you ever wondered what it's like to be knocked out, it's like waking up from a nightmare only to discover it wasn't a dream." -Forrest Griffin

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#136193 - 05/31/05 05:11 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: MattJ]
Cord Offline
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Registered: 01/13/05
Posts: 11399
Loc: Cambridge UK.
OK lets work on the premise that technique repetition of 10000 times gives you a good muscle memory of any given technique.
If you make a point of practicing 'technique A' 100 times five days per week (either at start or end of the day- similar to how many people do their ab work), regardless of other training, that means you can 'burn' it into your response system in 20 weeks. From then on you will need to incorporate it into your 'regular' practice to keep it fresh, but you can shift emphasis onto 'technique B'. Potentialy you can aim to add 2 techniques per year to your instinctive response system, if you have the desire, and remain injury free. Of course, as time goes on you will be juggling more and more of these techniques, and your practice will be more vigerous. But with the familiarity will come an informed opinion on their merits for you personally, and you can let some you do not rate highly slide in favour of more promising techniques. If in five years of trial and error you cna truly say you have 8 techniques that you can use/combine and adapt to any live situation, I would say that would make you very effective indeed.
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#136194 - 05/31/05 07:54 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
Diga Offline
Member

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 209
Loc: Hoodsport, Washington
Forget that question.
No matter how many times you practice something you should never consider it mastered. If you think you have meatered it then you are asleep at the wheel.

I have never met a "master" that considered himself a master. It is his students that refer to him with that title.

Keep practicing and you will keep learning, there is no end to it.

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#136195 - 06/02/05 07:27 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Diga]
MAGr Offline
Veteran

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 1147
Loc: London, home: Athens
I would sort of agree with diga.
For example i do about 1500 chain punches a day,
But every week that goes by, my technique gets better and better, muscle memory is just that, memory and if not practiced it will be forgotten.
I did a drill with a student that was a senior and we did a basic drill which he had forgotten and i had to show him!
I dont think a move is ever mastered to completeness, i think that there are levels, and acceptable proficient levels whih you say then that you have "mastered the move" so that you can move on to the next technique, but there are always higher levels.

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#136196 - 06/02/05 08:33 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: MAGr]
Rumble Offline
Member

Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 92
To me in my opinion it depends on the person some are very fast learners some are very slow learners some fall inbetween or some are gifted.
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#136197 - 06/18/05 03:13 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: SANCHIN31]
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
One of the smartest posts Ive seen in a while.
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#136198 - 07/05/05 05:24 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Chen Zen]
katsuhayai05 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/26/04
Posts: 49
Loc: florida
I think practicing a technique a certain amount of times to gain mastery is silly. If you can perform it under stressful situations sufficiently then you have gained mastery. I started high school wrestling my senior year of high school. I had never wrestled before but practice was very hard and you did the techniques under a lot of stress. Often after you already had a conditioning session. The point is I wasnt the best wrestler cuz I only did it for 4 months but I took some 2nd 3rd and 4th places at tournaments, and I can surely tell you that I hadn't practiced the techniques 10000 times but we always practiced under full resisting opponents and under stressful situations where our muscles were able to perform them even better under good conditions. Basically if you perform a technique dilligently and under realistic conditions you will learn it whether it takes a ten times or ten thousand. THERE IS NO MAGIC SET POINT TO LEARNING ANY TECHNIQUE.

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#136199 - 07/20/05 09:35 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
kyokushinkai Offline
Member

Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 327
Loc: Prince Edward Island , Canada
I never read all the other posts so if this was already said then just ignore this,You never master a technique because tommorow you will be better at it.
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#136200 - 07/20/05 10:21 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: kyokushinkai]
Neonomide Offline
Member

Registered: 03/01/05
Posts: 37
Loc: Finland
Lee believed to some extent that "I'd rather be overtrained than undertrained". This was regarding to calisthenics, technique training.

I think that if one has the fitness to do it, techniques can be done even when fatiqued.

It should be known, that it is no use to train delicate motions when one is tired, only resistance. This way the coordination does not get off by repeating gross motions. This is commonly known principle of sport science.
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Low aim is the highest crime a man has. Self-imposed limits affect your work, morality, everything.

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#136201 - 07/21/05 02:19 AM Re: How many times must you perform a technique before its mastered? [Re: Chen Zen]
laf7773 Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 05/05/04
Posts: 4064
Loc: Limbo
I'm not about to read 3 pages but i did skim the surface paying special attention to posts from those i hold in regard.

Let's take a look at the idea of "mastering" a technique. Let's go with the idea that it will take 10,000 reps to "master" a technique. Now look at how many possible variables each technique has based on how your opponent attacks. As those who have been at this a while knows, i'm not talking about the mcdojo boys here, each technique must be manipulated to fit the attack if it is to be effective. It's still the same technique just slightly altered for the situation. Now for the sake of argument we will say there is only 10 variations on each technique. In order to truly "master" that technique you must apply those same repetitions to each variation. Those 3.3 months has now turned into 2.75 years, for one technique.

Personally i would rather not "master" a technique but master adaptability. Do the repetitions to the point of not having to analyze each movement but instead of drilling the same technique the same way over and over modify it. Put the focus of repetition on the manipulation of the technique and the transition and not just on the technique. Have a firm grasp of a few "basic" techniques but master the ability to manipulate them and transition into something else when it's not working.

I'm sure many of you know this already but there are still a lot of people in the early stages of their training who think the secret to self defense is knowing thousands of techniques. Some of the best fighters i've seen only knew a hand full of techniques in various ranges of fighting but knew how to manipulate them.
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#136202 - 10/08/05 11:44 PM Re: How many times must you perform a technique be [Re: Chen Zen]
Mike_L Offline
Member

Registered: 10/08/05
Posts: 420
Loc: Rio Rancho NM/Louisville KY (U...
Go until you dont even have to think about the move your exicuting then do it all again!


Edited by Mike_L (10/08/05 11:45 PM)
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