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#136024 - 12/30/04 01:03 PM any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


please tell me how there get on in the UFC
thanks

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#136025 - 12/30/04 03:05 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Don't quite understand your question.


It could be argued that there are nothing BUT JKD fighters in the UFC anymore.


-John

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#136026 - 12/30/04 11:58 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Dfox Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 38
Loc: place,colorado,usa
its hard for me to believe that some one that understands jeet kune do would become a ufc fighter

I think that he might have taken jkd for the wrong reasons? to learn jkd only to fight a stupid match that risk death and for what? Not only that ufc has rules you realy cant use jkd in it

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#136027 - 12/31/04 07:49 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think JKogas makes a good point.

JKD is not about the individual techniques (that could or could not be used in a tournament), but rather about using whatever will work in a particular situation.

Dr. Jerry Beasley has said before that he thinks of JKD as more of a philosophy, rather than a codified system of techniques.

I agree with him.

Saying that, I feel there is nothing to stop a "JKD person" from entering a tournament. If the goal is to use what works for the situation, why couldn't they find techniques to work in a sport situation?

To hide behind the "street only" facade of JKD seems to me to go against the idea of JKD.

The MMA philosophy IS Jeet Kune Do!



[This message has been edited by MattJ (edited 12-31-2004).]

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#136028 - 01/01/05 10:06 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


Although I agree with JKD being a philosophy and that since the people in the UFC use what they see as working best you could argue that they all use JKD, I'm gonna disagree with that argument since JKD is still taught. You don't use Jeet Kune Do unless you actually train in it, or so is my opinion.

A lot of things that are taught in Jeet Kune Do don't work in the tournament circuit because of the rules. Since we use foul tactics and some breaks that don't double as holds (I.E. you have to do them fast to pull them off) and you can't use those in a tournament not many JKD people go into it.

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#136029 - 01/02/05 07:23 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

You don't use Jeet Kune Do unless you actually train in it, or so is my opinion.
[/QUOTE]

Why? Please explain?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

A lot of things that are taught in Jeet Kune Do don't work in the tournament circuit because of the rules.
[/QUOTE]

Then how do you know that they work at ALL?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

Since we use foul tactics and some breaks that don't double as holds (I.E. you have to do them fast to pull them off) and you can't use those in a tournament not many JKD people go into it.
[/QUOTE]

But you don't REALLY do them while you're training do you? I mean, you don't actually break anyones bones in training, right?

Do you believe that every fighter in the UFC uses everything he knows or is capable of?

-John

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#136030 - 01/02/05 03:20 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Dr. Jerry Beasley has said before that he thinks of JKD as more of a philosophy, rather than a codified system of techniques.

I agree with him.
[/QUOTE]
I, on the other hand disagree. If JKD is a "philosophy" then why does everyone who teaches it (including Dan Inosanto) say that in order to be good at JKD you must train in the basics of June Fan kung fu? If there are basics then it is a style (or a shcool, which ever you prefer).
Further proof of this is that countless JKD practitioners basically mimic the way Bruce fought. They use his favorite techniques and methods. This proves it's not just a philosophy even if peole do "flavor" it with other styles that Bruce wasn't into.

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#136031 - 01/02/05 03:36 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Bandit Killer.

I think Dan Inosanto was refering to learning martial arts basics, period. Not specifically Jun Fan.

Arguments can be made either way regarding the style/philosophy status of JKD. To learn anything requires an understanding of the basics. But if you really read into what Bruce was saying, he never intended his students to follow his training regime exactly.

He wanted them to explore and find their own way.

Sadly, you are correct about many JKD people imitating Bruce Lee. But that was not his intent.

[This message has been edited by MattJ (edited 01-02-2005).]

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#136032 - 01/02/05 04:45 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
[QUOTE]Dr. Jerry Beasley has said before that he thinks of JKD as more of a philosophy, rather than a codified system of techniques.

[/QUOTE]

I, on the other hand disagree. If JKD is a "philosophy" then why does everyone who teaches it (including Dan Inosanto) say that in order to be good at JKD you must train in the basics of June Fan kung fu?





I don't agree that you have to train in the basics of Jun Fan. In fact, I think doing so will only delay your development as a fighter.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:

If there are basics then it is a style (or a shcool, which ever you prefer).
[/QUOTE]

Then why did Lee himself (the creator) say that JKD was NOT a style? Do you want to doubt the very creator of JKD?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:

Further proof of this is that countless JKD practitioners basically mimic the way Bruce fought.
[/QUOTE]

And they have ALL missed the boat. That would be like ME trying to mimick Muhammed Ali. Only Ali could fight like Ali. Only Lee could fight like Lee. Only I can fighting like I can.

JKD is about the individual, not the creator, not the "style" or is it about mimicking anyone else. Direct quotes by Lee himself substantiate this.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:

They use his favorite techniques and methods. This proves it's not just a philosophy even if peole do "flavor" it with other styles that Bruce wasn't into.

[/QUOTE]

That's exactly why Lee closed DOWN the JKD schools. He SAW what people were doing and noticed they were all headed the wrong way.

-John

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#136033 - 01/02/05 11:36 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


Not going to answer all those for me since I said it was my opinion. As for knowing if the techniques really work at all, well, it's obvious they do. Wrist locks work, eye jabs work, groin shots work, etc. And no, of course I don't really break bones and stuff training. I'm sure none of the fighters in the UFC use what they're fully capable of, but they do train specifically for tournament fighting.

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#136034 - 01/03/05 02:43 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:
Not going to answer all those for me since I said it was my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Now that's not playing fair, is it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

As for knowing if the techniques really work at all, well, it's obvious they do.
[/QUOTE]

See, I want specifics. Tell me WHY it's "obvious" that they work?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

Wrist locks work, eye jabs work, groin shots work, etc.
[/QUOTE]

No, not always. I've seen each of those things NOT work to a very high percentage of the time.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Madrox:

And no, of course I don't really break bones and stuff training. I'm sure none of the fighters in the UFC use what they're fully capable of, but they do train specifically for tournament fighting.
[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily. Do you know each of those fighters and how they train? That would be impossible.

I know of several of them. I know one personally and I can tell you that they train for both sport and street - not just for "tournaments. That's s HUGE myth.

-John

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#136035 - 01/03/05 09:18 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


A lot of people believe that an eye jab or groin kick will end a fight and in some cases it might. These techniques are to be used to gain the upper hand in a fight, or a means to the end.
JKogas, what do you mean by groin shots and eye gouges not working?

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#136036 - 01/03/05 03:41 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
I don't think its so much that these techniques won't work (groin kicks, eye gouges etc), obviously they CAN work.

It more of, "How do YOU know they will work when you need them?" I mean do you actually practise these techniques against someone? I doubt it.

I cultivate my groin kicks on the rim of a moving heavybag, and while its predicitable, I also like to throw controlled kicks at a moving partner. I know this isn't really "alive training", but I still value it.

As far as finger gouges, same thing, I train them somewhat on a sheet of hanging paper. I put two small holes on the paper to simulate eyes. The best thing you can do to gain timing is have your opponent don safety glasses. Again not very much "alive", but its better than nothing at all.

Another techniques that can be useful, but not easily practiced against a partner are throat attacks.

No guarantee that they will work, (no guarantees about anything really) but they can still be cultivated to an extent, though you can't apply them against a training partner as you can other techniques such as punches and kicks and such.

It just isn't for some you know.

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#136037 - 01/03/05 04:03 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lethal Striker:
A lot of people believe that an eye jab or groin kick will end a fight and in some cases it might. These techniques are to be used to gain the upper hand in a fight, or a means to the end.
JKogas, what do you mean by groin shots and eye gouges not working?
[/QUOTE]

What I mean is, that in TOO many instances, these seemingly “lethal fight stoppers” are anything BUT! There is no absolute proof that eye jabs and groin shots will stop an opponent in any way. I’ve had both happen to me and it never stopped ME. There are many more instances of this to boot.

By “not working”, I mean that those strikes do not do the damage that many think that they will. And for the obvious reasons, there aren’t any ways to obtain any credible feedback during your training sessions.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:
I don't think its so much that these techniques won't work (groin kicks, eye gouges etc), obviously they CAN work. [/QUOTE]

The question is, how EFFECTIVELY can they or do they work? THAT is the question. Anything “can” work. The problem with these shots (not that I am against them – merely against the blind faith the so many seem to put INTO them) is that there is no way to truly practice them and receive credible feedback as to their effectiveness, as I already mentioned.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:

It more of, "How do YOU know they will work when you need them?" I mean do you actually practise these techniques against someone? I doubt it.
[/QUOTE]

And that is precisely my point. Again, I’m not saying don’t TRAIN them. Just realize the limitations of such practice. Realize that it’s better to have a legitimate game as opposed to relying on “tricks” and impracticable techniques.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:

I cultivate my groin kicks on the rim of a moving heavybag, and while its predicitable, I also like to throw controlled kicks at a moving partner. I know this isn't really "alive training", but I still value it.
[/QUOTE]

And that’s fine. So long as you have the ability to fight without “foul tactics”, you’ll definitely be able to fight “WITH” them, if you understand my point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:

As far as finger gouges, same thing, I train them somewhat on a sheet of hanging paper. I put two small holes on the paper to simulate eyes. The best thing you can do to gain timing is have your opponent don safety glasses. Again not very much "alive", but its better than nothing at all.
[/QUOTE]

You know what I do? I actually prefer to hone my jab and straight right against a real opponent. That way I know that if I can hit them with my closed fist, then my extended fingers are definitely going to have enough reach. And, I CAN obtain credible feedback with my jab/cross because I actually experience hitting someone. That’s going to yield ten TIMES the benefit than “pretending” to land shots.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:

Another techniques that can be useful, but not easily practiced against a partner are throat attacks.
[/QUOTE]

Not easily executed against anyone the least bit skilled as well, simply because you won’t get the opening for them. Most anyone with half *ssed skills are going to know to keep their chins down. You learn that in the FIRST WEEK of boxing. I mean, that’s BASIC!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:

No guarantee that they will work, (no guarantees about anything really) but they can still be cultivated to an extent, though you can't apply them against a training partner as you can other techniques such as punches and kicks and such.
It just isn't for some you know.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, they can be cultivated to an extent, but a credible (real) game can be cultivated to a higher degree. From vantage point of have legitimate skills, it’s a simple process to add the “foul” tactics, but that ISN’T true the other way around.

If I take two people; person A is a boxer and person B is an average Joe, right off the street, I can show them BOTH an eye jab and the boxer is going to be a HUNDRED times better at it. It’s only natural because he’s got the attributes of actually firing shots against real opponents hitting them back. He’s going to have the timing and the distancing down. He’s going to have the footwork to get in, throw it and get out (if need be).

It just makes so much more sense to focus on developing legitimate basics instead of spending so much time “pretending” to train and fight using hanging paper and people wearing goggles. But again, that’s just me.


-John

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#136038 - 01/08/05 01:22 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


you see everyone has an opinion thats what makes us human, like bruce lee said theres no such thing as the best martial art. a punch is a punch a kick is a kick. it all started with a philosiphy or an idea. bruce lee says.......martial art includes all the combative arts like karate, judo, chinese gung fu or chinese boxing, aikido, korean karate-i could go on and on and on. but it's a combative form of fighting. i mean, some of them became sport, but some of them are still not. i mean,some of them use, for instance, kicking to the groin, jabbing fingers into eyes, and things like that.......unfortunatly, now in boxing people are only alowed to punch. in judo, people are only alowed to throw. i do not despise these kinds of martial arts. what i mean is, we now find rigid forms which create differences among clans. and the world of martial art is shattered as a result................the other weakness is, when clans are formed, the people of a clan will hold their kind of martial art as the only truth, and do not dare to reform or improve it. thus they are confined in there own tiny world. there students become machines which imitate martial art forms....................as a matter of fact, they each have there strong points and weak points. they all need self-evaluation and improvement. they are too narrow-minded. they can only see their strong points, but not their weak points and other's strong points. a man confined in thought and scope will not be able to speak freely. therefore, if he wants to seek for truth, he should not be confined by the dead forms...........there is no such thing as an effective segment of a totality. by that i mean that i personally do not believe in the word style. why because, unless ther are human beings with three arms and four legs,m unlesswe have another group of beings on earth that are structurly different from us, there can be no different style of fighting. why is that? because we have two hands and two legs. now the unfortunate thing is that there's boxing, which uses hands, and judo, which uses throwing, i'm not putting them down, mind you-but because of styles, people are separated. they are not united together because styles became law. the original founder of the style started out with hypothesis. but now it has become the gospel truth, and people who go into that become the product of it. it dosn't matter how you are, who you are, how you are structured, how you are biult, or how you ared made...it doesn't seem to matter. you just go in there and become that product. and that to me, is not right..............now look at the ufc comp at the very begining evey one fort in there own style,the winners where the ground fighter not saying that the standup fighter are **** they just didn't train for the ground now as the comp evolved fighter needed to break away from tradition and needed to cross train to be effective thats what bruce lee is trying to say in. in the end royce lost he even had trouble with kimo because kimo new he had to break away from teakwondo and learn how to grapple. i think the ufc has opend up some minds the early days of the ufc was the best.... and thats what bruce lee was saying its sad that he's not around to see it

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#136039 - 01/23/05 02:36 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ya, I guess it is too bad Bruce wasn't around to see the birth of the UFC. I believe that if Bruce had been young enough to fight in the UFC he very well might have lost against somebody like Royce. This is pure speculation, but he probably would have been just as taken by surprise as all of the other strictly stand-up fighters. Generally I don't think Bruce trained at ground fighting at all. In the ring the only thing he probably could have resorted to was biting the guys leg (like he did in The Chinese Connection).

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#136040 - 01/23/05 07:00 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
Ya, I guess it is too bad Bruce wasn't around to see the birth of the UFC. I believe that if Bruce had been young enough to fight in the UFC he very well might have lost against somebody like Royce.[/QUOTE]

That's a good point, but I doubt he'd have fought at all.

It's important to understand that Lee had opportunities to fight in sanctioned events and never chose to. I think it's reasonable to see that even if the UFC had been in existence back then, he'd still have likely not competed.

One reason is because that Lee was trying to make it in the movies. That was his big thing. What would a loss of ANY sort have done to his burgeoning poplurity and his movie image myth that he'd been cultivating? You could say that it would have certainly not done his movie persona any benefit.

In other words, he had NOTHING to "gain" from fighting and everything to lose. That's one BIG reason why he never fought anyone. That and a huge ego. He had that too.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:

This is pure speculation, but he probably would have been just as taken by surprise as all of the other strictly stand-up fighters. Generally I don't think Bruce trained at ground fighting at all. In the ring the only thing he probably could have resorted to was biting the guys leg (like he did in The Chinese Connection).
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Lee's ground game certainly wasn't sophisticated by any means but he HAD begun understanding the importance of it.

He had commissioned Larry Hartsell to begin doing more research in this area.


-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 01-23-2005).]

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#136041 - 01/26/05 03:09 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
One BIG misconception of Jeet Kune Do is that one who practices two or more arts and combines them is JKD. Couldn't be more wrong. People in the UFC aren't JKD men either, JKD involves Bruce Lee's philosophy and METHOD OF ATTACK, It's not just boxing and wrestling.

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#136042 - 01/26/05 08:51 PM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKD means using what works, training with aliveness, not being bound by a style, etc.

Everyone in the UFC does that.

But you know what? You're named after a character from Gundam Wing, so HAHAHAHAHA, pointing.

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#136043 - 01/27/05 08:45 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Anonymous
Unregistered


humm

[This message has been edited by dpstudio (edited 01-27-2005).]

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#136044 - 01/29/05 12:36 AM Re: any good jeet kune do fighters in UFC
Chang Wufei Offline
Member

Registered: 06/09/04
Posts: 358
Loc: Spokane, WA
Hedgehogey, or whichever-

Actually I use the handle in the name of Chang Xian Wufei XI, a scarcely known Moselom kung fu man from the Ming period in China, not from any show. So I could reply by saying you are named after Sonic the Hedgehog, but I won't.

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