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#135803 - 12/05/04 06:28 PM Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.

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#135804 - 12/05/04 07:10 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I feel it's important to train for the trained. That way you cover ALL the bases. If you can handle the trained, the untrained by comparison should be a walk in the park.

That said, its good to throw in the natural "broken rhythm" of some awkward shots every now and again (like the typical arm punches you see everyone on the street throw). You can do that during your "self defense" training if you have that sort of thing.

We run a program called ISR. You practice closing on guys throwing heavy shots. During such practice, you can put in whatever attack you want to put in - from the untrained arm punches, tackles done while the guy is running in bent over, to straight, crisp, non-committed shots, etc. The sky is the limit.

As I view athletic, alive training as the end-all, be-all, naturally that's going to mean using skill throughout the training sessions. As a result, you get accustomed to dealing with skill.

That's just going to mean a lot more to me when some untrained, unconditioned, "Joe Sixpack" comes swinging.


-John

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#135805 - 12/05/04 11:24 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Thats why I started the thread. Many people throw away useful technique because they only train for skilled opponents. Like the trapping in WC.

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#135806 - 12/06/04 02:49 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I suppose throwing something away like trapping is just in keeping with my notion of JKD concepts (simplicity and daily decrease).

I've thrown away a LOT of stuff in an effort to simplify. Does that mean my trapping is gone?

Hardly! It means that I don't do "traditional"/compound trapping.

The "trapping" is still there. Its just done differently (Greco-Roman/muay Thai).

What is the OBJECTIVE of trapping?

-John

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#135807 - 12/06/04 07:57 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm...

If people are "throwing away useful technique because they only train for skilled opponents", then wouldn't you assume that is because they found something better?

BTW, I find chi sao training to be extremely useful to close the gap and even in the clinch(somewhat).

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#135808 - 12/06/04 01:16 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Chen, real thought provoking topic!

Do you train, as John suggests, to fight a "trained fighter"? And IS that the "be-all and end-all". Part of me agrees and part of is saying - "Well, maybe, I'm not so sure." There is a real paradox here.

"Training" on ANY level, by virtue of what it is, IMPLIES some level of orthodoxy, even if the training involves incorporating reacting to or employing yourself some unorthodox techniques or strategy yourself, right? (I'm not trying to create some kind of BS conundrum for anyone to work their way out of.)

So, even if your purpose is to handle someone at a certain level of skill -say a highly trained MMA athlete - would you necessarily be successful against a less "skilled", more unorthodox opponent who is equally (if not more so) determined to prevail? My thought is probably so.

The other side is that if you DONT'T train to fight "MMA caliber fighters" (I'm not confident that I competely understand what that really means when people say it) am I somehow automatically giving something away? My inclination is to say no.

Personally, I haven't discarded any techniques that work for me. IMHO, the "high % v low %" argument is a relative one. If it works, it works. John and I have bantered this back and forth a few times but there are things that would probably be very LOW % against him (or you Chen) that could be realtively HIGH against someone else.

The logical question then is how do you know when that might be? If you 'train to fight only the best' your belief is that they are the "best" within a given circumstance right? - with some level of orthodoxy. What if it is/was the "best" guy who had been 'training' in a prison recreation yard for 4 or 5 years?

Not sure if I conveyed these thoughts the way I intended and hope that you get my intended meaning in spite of it.

Be well,

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by KiDoHae (edited 12-06-2004).]

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#135809 - 12/06/04 03:36 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think we're overlooking the fact that we ALL train with trained fighters. They are there to learn, just like you. We can't go around picking fights with untrained folk, just for training's sake. Anyways, I think the only live factor that separates a trained and untrained fighter (other than awkwardness and level of training, lol), and actually gives the untrained fighter a chance, is the broken rhythym of his attacks. This is a trait of our skilled fighters also (at least in my school), so how fine is the line between the two? I'd have to say you are probably better off training with skilled fighters, then You will practically own the untrained ones when you fight them.

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#135810 - 12/06/04 03:46 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


From what I've read at other posts, Chen Zen and JKogas train regularly in schools they either run or instruct at. Also, they attend seminars when they can for expert instruction which increases their martial knowledge. This alone puts them in a higher percentage category of fighter due to factors such as fitness, reflexes, muscle memory, etc. Add to this mix a desire to defend against the best fighters drives them to train harder, thus improving them.
Now, the liklihood of being jumped on the street by a "Paul Vunak" or "Mike Lee Kanarak" is highly unlikely as a true martial artist is not a street thug. However, there are crimanals who train, street thugs who are good fighters. I've been fortunate in my encounters. All mine were against unskilled attackers who got more than they bargained for and all left seriously injured. It's one thing to have a half delirious crack-head put a gun to your face and demand your money; quite another if he's a down-on-your-luck ex-Army ranger. You just have to be ready to handle whatever's thrown at you. In baseball terms, you have to take them yard no matter how hard they throw.

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#135811 - 12/06/04 05:42 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your observations about Jkogas and Chen regarding their training are accurate. For the record it is a ditto here too.

A crack head after your wallet is one thing, a down and out Army Ranger is another. A hard case who has never stepped foot in an MA dojo or MMA gym is yet another.

The question I guess I was trying to pose was by what standard do you judge your training if it is to "fight only the best"?

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135812 - 12/06/04 08:15 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I just think it's common sense that if you train for and against "skilled" resistance - then the average, untrained person will be a cakewalk.

Does that make ANY sense?

-John

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#135813 - 12/06/04 10:04 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum? Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent.

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#135814 - 12/07/04 08:37 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Another thing I've noticed personally is when the situation unfolds its almost like slow motion. I'd blast my attacker with a punch or spin him and choke him out. The whole event seemed to last longer than it really did. I told a friend about this observation and he said he's heard the same thing from others who had to use their skill on the street. I guess its the adrenaline rush.

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#135815 - 12/07/04 10:34 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum? Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent. [/QUOTE]


Chen,

that was the point I was attempting to make with the relativity of "hig v.low". It also goes to economy of movement on another level too I think.
--------------------------------------------
I just think it's common sense that if you train for and against "skilled" resistance - then the average, untrained person will be a cakewalk.
Does that make ANY sense?

-John

Actually - it does and I wasn't disagreeing with you. Hope you didn't get that impression. Training in your style of JKD/MMA would seem to deal with the "average Joe".

I was really just trying ask "who/what" is the "best" fighter from a slightly different perspective based on Chen's thread starter.

Be well,

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135816 - 12/07/04 01:26 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


wot way would be the best way to train if you have no 1 to train with

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#135817 - 12/07/04 04:56 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
my instructor just told me to fight whoever is standing in front of you at the time...in class...it just happens to be trained martial artists (of varying degrees)...also that way you BOTH get training...if you have one guy standing there throwing overhand punches...and wild lunging punches at you he benifits zero. he also said that we were not there to hurt or beat each other...every one of us is there to learn. another added plus to training alive as jkogas puts it, is BOTH participants reap benefits simultaneously
i often pondered this question because most of the people i trained with are more skilled than i am...then one day while outside of a local tavern a drunken friend of mine was...well...in a fit to put it mildly and he attacked me...he was so slow i almost laughed...so yes i would say its best to train to fight trained people..i agree with jkogas here.


[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 12-07-2004).]

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#135818 - 12/07/04 06:44 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. [/QUOTE]

Compared to the untrained, yes, it should mean that we face skilled opposition.

Skilled meaning, mechanically and fundamentally correct with decent attributes (timing, etc). Not everyone is going to be world class – but there is generally some basic skill.

Such as, a correctly thrown jab or cross as opposed to a swinging haymaker.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum?
[/QUOTE]

Why not just train like a Thai fighter?

Who said low level kicks and clinching is unskilled?

Are they being done incorrectly or fundamentally flawed? If so, I would agree. There needs to be some fundamental structure. This is what I refer to as “skilled” opposition. That’s what we train for – the skilled. The Unskilled by comparison should then be a fairly easy event.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. [/QUOTE]

But why bother when other more high percentage tactics and techniques are available, which DO work against the skilled and the unskilled alike?

When time is of the essence, you have to simplify. We don’t have the time to put toward low percentage tactics, when we’re busy training the one’s that are going to work in most cases (skilled or unskilled) anyway. It’s senseless to stop and say: “but we need to work more trapping because we need to be able to deal with the unskilled as WELL as the skilled.

Then the other guys say; “but what you’re doing against the skilled is going to work even BETTER against the unskilled!”

Then I’d be like; “whoa….that’s true. Why wasn’t I thinking of that?”

Hey, if you’ve got endless hours to while away, train however you guys would like. Meditate while standing on pylons one legged, jam your hands into sand pebbles (which really disfigures your hands) do kata and one step sparring. Practice your mook jong.

If you’re like MANY and have jobs, families, other responsibilities like myself, there’s no time LEFT to train technique which is unnecessary from the outset. I just don’t personally have the time for it. No worries however, because everything else that’s left and is high percentage is plenty anyway.

Bruce said it best: Hack Away The Unessential. Are we adding MORE stuff to the mix, or striving for daily decrease? I know what MY answer to that is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent.
[/QUOTE]

There may be a place, but there is no reason for training the low percentage. I mean, why would I even WANT to?

Classical trapping “may” work against some inebriated redneck. But I can guarantee that an underhook is going to work better. They both will accomplish the same thing. The underhook however will do me one better : It will afford me the benefit of superior position.

So, if I have to chose to spend the training time on one – which is it like to be put on; classical trapping or clinch work (modern trapping)?

These are just my opinions folks. Everyone’s on their own paths. Discover your own truths….I’ve discovered mine.

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-08-2004).]

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#135819 - 12/08/04 10:05 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice post John.

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#135820 - 12/10/04 10:47 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
There may be a place, but there is no reason for training the low percentage. I mean, why would I even WANT to?

Classical trapping “may” work against some inebriated redneck. But I can guarantee that an underhook is going to work better. They both will accomplish the same thing. The underhook however will do me one better : It will afford me the benefit of superior position.

So, if I have to chose to spend the training time on one – which is it like to be put on; classical trapping or clinch work (modern trapping)?

These are just my opinions folks. Everyone’s on their own paths. Discover your own truths….I’ve discovered mine.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-08-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

You're looking too close to the details and not the idea that they imply, John. The question isnt about the technique but the thinking behind them. The techniques I mentioned were simply examples. The point was, just because something may not work against skilled opponents doesnt mean that it isnt a good technique. I never said clinching or low level kicks were a bad thing, what I said is you may not have success using them against a Muay Thai fighter of skill. Because they train that way. But just because it might not work as well or with less percentage against Joe Muay Thai doesnt mean that it wont work later against other opposition. Just like working the jab might not work against a boxer. Does it mean that you should drop the jab? No. It means when editing your own personal interpretations of JKD, be careful that you throw away something vital to your training.

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#135821 - 01/05/05 01:51 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does. [/QUOTE]

I made a living playing pool for several years. During this time I had to learn to play against people of all skills. From the ham fisted moron to the pros. Each skill level brought about entirely different situations. I'll admit there were some similarities amongst those who had a general idea of what they were doing but still each encounter was unique. Having thrived in this arena for several years i learned one thing. anyone can beat you regardless of skill level they can get lucky or they can out class you. I never once took anyone for granted as an easy win, I treated all comers as if they were the best. It was this mentality that kept me on top of my game for years. That said, i have applied this approach to my martial arts training and it has worked very well. IMHO if you train for just one style of fighter or train for the best guy your missing out on a wealth of information adn knowledge that can be gained from training and sparring with the lesser fighters or the unskilled. In my opinion the skilled fighter can be somewhat predictable, meaning that you can easier estimate what he will do as oppossed to the unskilled or lesser skilled fighters. In my view it is better to trin with the not-so-goods and the unskilled to learn to deal with the unexpected, then take that knowledge and apply it to the better fighters you spar or train with. I would bet you will improve dramatically adn will be able to take on and compete with the top fighters in a relatively shorter time. Just my two cents.

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#135822 - 01/05/05 11:46 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thaiboxer:
I made a living playing pool for several years. During this time I had to learn to play against people of all skills. From the ham fisted moron to the pros. Each skill level brought about entirely different situations. I'll admit there were some similarities amongst those who had a general idea of what they were doing but still each encounter was unique. Having thrived in this arena for several years i learned one thing. anyone can beat you regardless of skill level they can get lucky or they can out class you. I never once took anyone for granted as an easy win, I treated all comers as if they were the best. It was this mentality that kept me on top of my game for years. That said, i have applied this approach to my martial arts training and it has worked very well. IMHO if you train for just one style of fighter or train for the best guy your missing out on a wealth of information adn knowledge that can be gained from training and sparring with the lesser fighters or the unskilled. In my opinion the skilled fighter can be somewhat predictable, meaning that you can easier estimate what he will do as oppossed to the unskilled or lesser skilled fighters. In my view it is better to trin with the not-so-goods and the unskilled to learn to deal with the unexpected, then take that knowledge and apply it to the better fighters you spar or train with. I would bet you will improve dramatically adn will be able to take on and compete with the top fighters in a relatively shorter time. Just my two cents.[/QUOTE]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

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#135823 - 01/08/05 05:25 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Darn, Cory, you sure can pick 'em!!
I think I see Chen's point. If you train only with the very best, there's some techniques that if attempted would get you knocked on your butt, because they just wouldn't work with a skilled opponent. E.g.: For fun, when sparring with a noob, every so often I'll explosively move into him, kiai as loud as I can, wait for the startle response, then leisurely hit him where he left himself uncovered (Usually the lower ribs, since the startle response is almost uniformly to cover the head). I have no illusions on what would happen with a better trained opponent. But the fact is that it DOES work, sometimes. I think the point Chen's trying to make is that while training to fight stars, useful but limited little tricks like that get dropped from the technique "inventory".
I guess the answer still is to train to fight the very best, but not lose sight of the "lesser" techniques. I'm sure everyone will agree that after a while one can sense the opponents skill level and gauge whether or not one of the "kid stuff" techniques would work.

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#135824 - 01/08/05 09:33 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Darn, Cory, you sure can pick 'em!!
I think I see Chen's point. If you train only with the very best, there's some techniques that if attempted would get you knocked on your butt, because they just wouldn't work with a skilled opponent. E.g.: For fun, when sparring with a noob, every so often I'll explosively move into him, kiai as loud as I can, wait for the startle response, then leisurely hit him where he left himself uncovered (Usually the lower ribs, since the startle response is almost uniformly to cover the head). I have no illusions on what would happen with a better trained opponent. But the fact is that it DOES work, sometimes. I think the point Chen's trying to make is that while training to fight stars, useful but limited little tricks like that get dropped from the technique "inventory".
I guess the answer still is to train to fight the very best, but not lose sight of the "lesser" techniques. I'm sure everyone will agree that after a while one can sense the opponents skill level and gauge whether or not one of the "kid stuff" techniques would work.
[/QUOTE]

Good answer. Thats part of the point. The other part of the point being that "Skill" is almost predictable.

Lets say you get a bunch of guys who train "high percentage". They use Boxing and BJJ and all these other things that become streamlined and mainstream in the end. If you only have five punches and one kick then you've got the wrong idea. How long will it be before you become predictable?

Daily decrease is good but variety isnt a bad thing.

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#135825 - 01/09/05 11:06 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Good answer. Thats part of the point. The other part of the point being that "Skill" is almost predictable.

Lets say you get a bunch of guys who train "high percentage". They use Boxing and BJJ and all these other things that become streamlined and mainstream in the end. If you only have five punches and one kick then you've got the wrong idea. How long will it be before you become predictable?

Daily decrease is good but variety isnt a bad thing.
[/QUOTE]

Good point!
And how about the flip side: You start expecting predictably advanced techniques from the opponent. I can't remember how many times I've gotten nailed by a noob who just flailed out with an off- the- wall panic response (Interestingly, most times I'd wind up with a finger in the eye in some way. The panic response seems to include flailing out with extended fingers instead of fists). I used to get mad at myself every time it happened, attributing it to my own incompetence or lack of alertness, until I heard others much more advanced than me talking about the same thing happening to them. Then again, maybe it's just that we were ALL a bunch of incompetents!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

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#135826 - 01/09/05 09:22 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Good point!
And how about the flip side: You start expecting predictably advanced techniques from the opponent. I can't remember how many times I've gotten nailed by a noob who just flailed out with an off- the- wall panic response (Interestingly, most times I'd wind up with a finger in the eye in some way. The panic response seems to include flailing out with extended fingers instead of fists). I used to get mad at myself every time it happened, attributing it to my own incompetence or lack of alertness, until I heard others much more advanced than me talking about the same thing happening to them. Then again, maybe it's just that we were ALL a bunch of incompetents!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

It happens more often than people like to admit.

There seems to be a common rythm and weapons set between fighters of skill. They all seem to go at a similar pace. Its slower than they actually are to conserve energy and adapt to the opponent. Then the break in rythm lands the attack.

And the weapons become the same. The punches are similar to boxing. Jab Jab reverse punch. I dont know how many 4th or 5th dans have thrown that very combination at me. Or snap front kick to punch. It seems like everyone stops what they're training in, does MMA for two years and become automatic masters. They all fight; the same its boring. Its also predictable.

What would you expect more from an opponent a jab or a knife hand? The punch, yet its the first weapon someone will use. This isnt a diatribe against the jab its just an example. Maybe theres nothing to it and its all beginers luck and ego on the part of "superior" students. Or maybe some of these "skilled" warriors are to biased to their own methods to see that they might have overlooked a few things when they were busy streamlining everything.

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#135827 - 01/10/05 08:11 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


'Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.'

Bruce said it best himself:
"Train against anyone and everyone. Somtimes a clumsy man can mess you up more than a skilled fighter. Someone that attacks you clawing and kicking who wont let up!"
I have to agree. especially when you confront people that do not care if they die.
These are the worse type of opponents.
There are quite a few individuals that have come from broken homes, and/or are living a less than ideal life. Now, add to this the guy may be hopped up on meth, or angel dust or what have you, he will feel no pain. You must take him out of the equation immediately!
Another comment from Lee's 'Longstreet' appearance. Quote: "You must learn the art of dying. To learn to die is to be liberated from it". How true. It is only when you hold life precious in the heat of combat that will nearly secure your doom.
To sum up...train with anybody that will put the full contact gear on with you. There is ALWAYS something to learn, even from the most unskilled fighters.

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#135828 - 01/10/05 10:10 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


'Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.'

Bruce said it best himself:
"Train against anyone and everyone. Somtimes a clumsy man can mess you up more than a skilled fighter. Someone that attacks you clawing and kicking who wont let up!"
I have to agree. especially when you confront people that do not care if they die.
These are the worse type of opponents.
There are quite a few individuals that have come from broken homes, and/or are living a less than ideal life. Now, add to this the guy may be hopped up on meth, or angel dust or what have you, he will feel no pain. You must take him out of the equation immediately!
Another comment from Lee's 'Longstreet' appearance. Quote: "You must learn the art of dying. To learn to die is to be liberated from it". How true. It is only when you hold life precious in the heat of combat that will nearly secure your doom.
To sum up...train with anybody that will put the full contact gear on with you. There is ALWAYS something to learn, even from the most unskilled fighters.

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#135829 - 03/04/05 03:01 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does. [/QUOTE]

Before spending(wasting?) time on thinking how to best train to fight the best, let's first focus on how this would change our training.
Probably not much. Would you all of a sudden throw your punches differently? How about your kicks then? No? Then what about your grappling techniques, such as the armbar, or the RNC. Would they be performed differently? Mine sure as h*** wouldn't. The major difference is the intensity of the training.

Amature muay thai fighters train like the best of 'em. The real difference is how skilled they are. The difference between the training of an amature fighter and the training of a world class fighter is the same.

Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort, Yves Edwards and Randy Couture are all fighters who I hold in high esteem, but it would be naive to think that they train diffenrently from us, except maybe they have a tougher cardio workout and have more time to train, (since they have sponsors and are proffesionals). Most of them have trained muay thai and BJJ. But something makes them that much better. It's not magical different training, but hard dedicated training that makes the difference.

I'd say any of these guys would wipe the floor with whoever steps to them on the street.
Because of their generel understanding of the martial arts, because of their superior attributes.

So, IMHO, you should never train to "fight the best"... you should train to be the best! Hope that makes sense.

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#135830 - 03/04/05 04:32 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

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#135831 - 03/04/05 04:54 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by blackthumb:
I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

[/QUOTE]

Troll bait.


-John

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#135832 - 03/04/05 06:39 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by blackthumb:
I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

[/QUOTE]

Let me guess, you also do TKD. Take it from me man, I had this kind of biased opinion for the better part of 12 years, there is no ultimate all round MA.

Sure, some students will be awesome, but I've taught some students who don't give a rats.

People are going to 'dis this post, don't take offense.

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#135833 - 03/06/05 05:54 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Kook,

Sure your training would change, especially if it is traditional.

When training to fight the best there is, you often overlook certain techniques because they are less "probable" At the same time you also throw things out that are truly useless against a skilled opponent.

Eventually it all looks like boxing. Once everyone trains this way, is it still as effective?

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#135834 - 03/06/05 09:21 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


UFC and PrideFC dudes aint even close to being the best, the best ones can only be found on that dreaded 'S' word. I train not to fight, but incase one of those dudes is not a good person and threatens me or my loved ones.

"I don't fight because of want, I do because of need." I think that goes along with "You must have a passion other than fighting to be a good fighter."

I think that makes alot of sense, that's why people who train to fight will NEVER even come close to me.

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#135835 - 03/07/05 06:19 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Kook,

Sure your training would change, especially if it is traditional.

When training to fight the best there is, you often overlook certain techniques because they are less "probable" At the same time you also throw things out that are truly useless against a skilled opponent.

Eventually it all looks like boxing. Once everyone trains this way, is it still as effective?
[/QUOTE]

How could it ever look like boxing? When training to fight the best there is, I assume we are still fighting the best there is outside the ring right?

And if a technique is useless against a skilled opponent why would you ever need it?

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#135836 - 03/07/05 08:02 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Any reality based hand to hand system eventually resembles boxing. Thats not to say that the footwork is the same. Or that you might not throw a kick or two but that the actual punches resmble boxing. It occurs all over the world. An observation of real fighting shows that.

Why would you need a technique that wouldnt work against a skilled opponent? Well, not everyone is skilled. Lets say for a moment that the skilled opponent being reffered to has some skill with Muay Thai, as most MMA guys do. Now since this is the case, its less likely that you will hit a low level kick, and even less likely that the low level kick is going to damage the structure. Does this mean that the kick is less effective and should be dropped from the curriculum? Its still going to work against joe schmoe. Eventually, it seems that it all gets streamlined,which is good, but if you do this too much then you lose out on some great things, and everyone begins to fight like everyone else. That isnt JKD. Thats a style. An automatic response directed for the masses and it eventually will fall apart.

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#135837 - 03/07/05 03:10 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oozuru:
UFC and PrideFC dudes aint even close to being the best, the best ones can only be found on that dreaded 'S' word.
[/QUOTE]

What's that dreaded "S word"? You mean that guys on the street are better fighters than the athletic, conditioned, TRAINED fighters that you see in Pride and the UFC?

WOW! That's really amazing! Why don't the "street guys" then enter one of those tournaments and kick all of their butts just to prove how good they are?


Thanks

-John

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#135838 - 03/07/05 03:41 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Cause the street don't got rules.

WOW, that was easy. I've been know for quick responses, some of which are witty.

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#135839 - 03/07/05 04:29 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oozuru:
Cause the street don't got rules.

WOW, that was easy. I've been know for quick responses, some of which are witty.
[/QUOTE]

That didn't really answer the question of why these "nebulous" street fighters don't enter these competitions and prove themselves.

Or wait, perhaps they already have and we just don't realize it??? Maybe? I don't know.

Or, may they would just get the crap beat out of them with rules???

-John

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#135840 - 03/07/05 06:03 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sometimes you just...

some of the UFC fighters ARE street fighters. If I recall correctly Tank Abbott uses street tactics, that's limited to hand-to-hand of course. And why do sooooooooooooooooooooooomany people OVERestimate Mike Tyson, I'm sure Tank is one of 'those' few people who can take more than one punch from Tyson. I here people say "no one can survive Mike Tyson's hits." My older bro prob could, and I can make my bro's punches look like slaps compared to mine. See, it all works out, "no one stands outside the circle."

I hereby claim all rights to that quote.

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#135841 - 03/07/05 07:03 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
All I'm trying to figure out is how these 'street fighters' would outdo all of the worlds better MMA fighters.

I'd asked you a question and you still haven't really answered it.

Not looking for an argument. Just an intelligent discussion.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 03-07-2005).]

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#135842 - 03/07/05 09:08 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I'm not avoiding the question, I already answered it, "why don't some of these street fighters enter and kick the MMA fighter's butts?"

I said "some of the UFC fighters ARE street fighters," does it register now?

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#135843 - 03/08/05 04:09 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
You said,

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oozuru:
UFC and PrideFC dudes aint even close to being the best, the best ones can only be found on that dreaded 'S' word. [/QUOTE]

All that I simply wanted to do, was to find out why you felt that way. I mean, that opinion of your's still applies doesn't it? Or, you wouldn't have uttered it in the first place right?

Or, could you have had a change of opinion and now see things differently?


-John

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#135844 - 03/08/05 06:30 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oozuru -

LOL!

Your street myth is not supported by the facts whatsoever.

How many UFC's have those street fighters won? Hell, how many matches have they won, compared to the trained fighters?

Not to say that there are not good fighters out on the street, but the trained guys are going to have a much higher rate of success.

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#135845 - 03/08/05 03:47 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ugh, okay I'll put it another way, while some UFC fighters are street fighters as well such as David Abbott, 'street' fighters are trained too...well some of them any way. See I remember this one blonde lady, really street worthy, she was a third dan in Shotokan too. Anyway I know of her because I had the inconvenience of meating her, maybe she had you know what, but she takes her temper out on me. I say a short tmeper will make a fool of you soon enough and sure enough it did, after she used almost everything a black belt in Karate can learn she got fatigued because I dodged and parried everything she threw at me. I took pitty on her (yes because she was a lady), I said "it's okay now, everything's going to be okay." From the way some of you talk I wouldn't put it past you to beat her to death, but that's just me, a merciful human being (imagine that).

So, I would hope that you understand me now, just because you're on the street doesn't mean you're 'untrained', you know what assuming does, right? "Assume makes an *** out of you and me."

[This message has been edited by Oozuru (edited 03-08-2005).]

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#135846 - 03/09/05 05:14 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Any reality based hand to hand system eventually resembles boxing. Thats not to say that the footwork is the same. Or that you might not throw a kick or two but that the actual punches resmble boxing. It occurs all over the world. An observation of real fighting shows that.

Why would you need a technique that wouldnt work against a skilled opponent? Well, not everyone is skilled. Lets say for a moment that the skilled opponent being reffered to has some skill with Muay Thai, as most MMA guys do. Now since this is the case, its less likely that you will hit a low level kick, and even less likely that the low level kick is going to damage the structure. Does this mean that the kick is less effective and should be dropped from the curriculum? Its still going to work against joe schmoe. Eventually, it seems that it all gets streamlined,which is good, but if you do this too much then you lose out on some great things, and everyone begins to fight like everyone else. That isnt JKD. Thats a style. An automatic response directed for the masses and it eventually will fall apart.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, I think I see your point, though I don't agree with it.

For people to fight the same, they would have to *be* the same. Their fighting *styles* might look like each others, but didn't Bruce say there is no styles of fighting? We have two arms, two legs, the thing is to put those tools to the best possible use.

Take boxing for an example. Boxing prohibits attacking below waist level.

In boxing only punching is allowed. No elbows, no knees, no kicks, no dirty techniques, no grappling is allowed.

Punches has been limited to jab, cross, hook, uppercut and any variations and or combos of those.

Also a lot of techniques are no longer possible in boxing because of the gloves.

If you compare that to actual fighting it is a very, very limited *game*.

Still you see many different ways of fighting hidden within boxing. Hidden within, basicly, four punches.

The difference in *style* is in how they use their punches, how they combine them.

It is also seen in how they react to an attack. Some curl up behind their gloves, jamming the attacker, then counter attacking. Some use distance, yet others duck, slip, bob and weave.

Some are very aggressive, always setting the pace, others let the opponent set the pace to feel his rythm, then use it against him self, always letting him set the pace, and just staying one half beat ahead.

All this is seen in a fighting art that is basicly consistent of four punches with target areas limited to the body and head.

What makes some boxers better boxers than others?

How fast their punches is. How unexpected they are when launched. How well they read the opponent. How hard and penetrating each punch is.
The ability to hit from *all* angles.

The very same thing that makes any fighter a good fighter, IMHO.

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#135847 - 03/16/05 08:04 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Many of you spend too much time posting on here and not enough time training. You learn best from experience...not idle talk.

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#135848 - 04/06/05 10:31 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by silvertigertkd1:
Another thing I've noticed personally is when the situation unfolds its almost like slow motion. I'd blast my attacker with a punch or spin him and choke him out. The whole event seemed to last longer than it really did. I told a friend about this observation and he said he's heard the same thing from others who had to use their skill on the street. I guess its the adrenaline rush.[/QUOTE]


See the topic no-minded-state ;-)

Grtz Randy

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#135849 - 04/06/05 11:04 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


IMHO you have to train to be able to fight anyone anywhere. If it be a MT-fighter or a Streetfighter. You just have to calculate in your training that you can't prepare for anything. And just by knowing that you are... Does that make sense?

I personally don't compete anymore in tournaments because my own style is to agressive. Since I combine serveral disciplines like wrestling / greec-roman / karate / ninpo / taijitsu. I would have trouble to fight according rules, becuase it limits me. On the other hand I can learn more about surviving in limited situations.

But like what's said before on the streets there are no rules. Just survival. So train every bit of your body to withstand an attack and learn to attack from every postition. For example, off-balance shots, circling, etc.

As for training only for the best only... Maybe... If you wanna be the best of the best or wanna see how far your skill reaches in Kumite. If you use you MA for yourself then I'd say no.

I'd say you have to combine (use what you can use, discard the rest). So you'll have to train with skilled MA-ists because they have an amount of control of their body and moves. But still train with the liveness of the street.

- Off-balance attacks
- Broken rythm
- Circling
- Defense against headdown-rushins
- Defense against tanklike opponents, who will just walk through you.

As for the duscussion about: can a streetfighter outclass a skilled MA-ist. Maybe... If he's experienced enough and knows when and where to hit, etc. It's all about experience.

I mean I like to think I'm a skilled and experienced fighter, but I'm not sure. Maybe I encounter someone tomorrow that's gonna beat my ass... There's always someone better out there.

IMHO you can hack away the unessentials. But only in excesive movement and some useless slaps. For example I don't do the spinning back kick anymore because it just doesn't work for me. That doedn't mean I can't perform it anymore or won't be needing it anymore.

Plus that most people here who train have a certain amount of conditioning and muscle memory. I mean I don't think that anyone here who is skilled trains Uchi Uke (as example) on a daily basis for hours in a row. You know how to use it and can perform. So move on to another action and practise that. Then combine the 2 moves you have "mastered". So you won't forget. That way you can save the time in training, which I don't have much.

So I think it is not about hacking away. It's about moving on the next goal.

I believe I totally lost the discussion in the end, but he. It's just me ;-)

Grtz Randy

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#135850 - 04/06/05 06:55 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thesifudragon:
Many of you spend too much time posting on here and not enough time training. You learn best from experience...not idle talk.[/QUOTE]

Nice to see you on the forum. What did YOU come here to do? Post or train?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hellblaze:
You just have to calculate in your training that you can't prepare for anything.
[/QUOTE]

True, you can’t prepare for everything (which is what I think you were saying there). But that’s not best or most realistic idea anyway. The idea is to prepare YOURSELF to be the best you can be. That requires you to prepare by training against the skilled energy (as well as ‘unskilled’ energy on occasion).

No you can’t prepare for everything. That’s why its important that for true self-preservation (which I see as different than self defense), we must develop and use our BRAINS – the greatest weapon we have.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hellblaze:

I personally don't compete anymore in tournaments because my own style is to agressive. Since I combine serveral disciplines like wrestling / greec-roman / karate / ninpo / taijitsu. I would have trouble to fight according rules, becuase it limits me. On the other hand I can learn more about surviving in limited situations.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds like MMA might be a better fit for you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hellblaze:

As for training only for the best only... Maybe... If you wanna be the best of the best or wanna see how far your skill reaches in Kumite. If you use you MA for yourself then I'd say no.
[/QUOTE]

I think many people are confused by what I refer to as “training for the best”. It’s more of, you train to fight against other “skilled” fighters rather than unskilled, unconditioned barroom bums. I think that’s fairly clear to understand.

I’m not talking about training to fight the worlds best fighters – merely the worlds “trained” fighters.


-John

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#135851 - 04/07/05 06:20 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ok, tnx for your reply John, now I see your point. And I guess I totally missed it...LOL


You mean you train in the dojo or gym so you can preserve yourself on the street against a skilled fighter. Whatever it may be.

That's what I meant by "You can't prepare for everything" I just forgot to add the last line. "So train everything for anything".

MMA or Pride would be fit for me, but I'll have to train much more than I am now. I don't find the time to do so. Besides that my shoulder is busted, it bounced out again (3rd time in 3 years). So I'm training it back to strength.

Plus I believe that I don't have to prove myself. Some of my friends always want to spar, etc. But I don't feel like showing off you know. Not that I can't get my ass kicked in Kumite but still.

We'll see what happens when I'm back in the game 4 real. For now it's just recovering training for me. F***ed up... :-(

Grtz Randy

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#135852 - 04/14/05 02:49 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with some of the replys here, i think its a good idea to train for both the trained martial artist and the basic run of the mill streetfighter, because sometimes your fighting both maybe a streetfighter with a lil martial arts backround, or an army guy or a boxer i like to take anything into account because you never know what you will be facing out there.
In my neighborhood recently there are some bloods an crips gangmembers seen around so i train myself to fight 2 3 or 5 people if i have too.Ya know a broad approach.

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#135853 - 04/17/05 08:34 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey guys, been a while since I posted here.

That's right ;-) One of my Credo's is "Be prepared..."

One tip... If you ever get jumped by more than one opponent, try to keep them both in front of you and circle a lot, then they'll be blocking eachother. Another good thing is go stand with your back to a wall or corner (even better)...

The other thing with streetfighting is... Anything goes, You train for in the ring for sports and competing, that's good that's what I did to. But you also have to train to be able to use you MA for selfdefence on the streets. And if you get cornered and have to fight... Then use anything, if you have to break an arm or nose, do it...

I find that some people who train MA for sports and only have the sports mentallity get in trouble on the streets because they don't pull through. They don't finish moves and submissions. Or even freez-up. Had that once myself... lol took me about 3 seconds to react... That wasn't pretty, so I thought to myself, I'm going to train with a street mentallity to, so I can compete with rules, but also can switch to "full-out" when needed.

Best regards, Randy

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