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#135823 - 01/08/05 05:25 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Darn, Cory, you sure can pick 'em!!
I think I see Chen's point. If you train only with the very best, there's some techniques that if attempted would get you knocked on your butt, because they just wouldn't work with a skilled opponent. E.g.: For fun, when sparring with a noob, every so often I'll explosively move into him, kiai as loud as I can, wait for the startle response, then leisurely hit him where he left himself uncovered (Usually the lower ribs, since the startle response is almost uniformly to cover the head). I have no illusions on what would happen with a better trained opponent. But the fact is that it DOES work, sometimes. I think the point Chen's trying to make is that while training to fight stars, useful but limited little tricks like that get dropped from the technique "inventory".
I guess the answer still is to train to fight the very best, but not lose sight of the "lesser" techniques. I'm sure everyone will agree that after a while one can sense the opponents skill level and gauge whether or not one of the "kid stuff" techniques would work.

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#135824 - 01/08/05 09:33 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Darn, Cory, you sure can pick 'em!!
I think I see Chen's point. If you train only with the very best, there's some techniques that if attempted would get you knocked on your butt, because they just wouldn't work with a skilled opponent. E.g.: For fun, when sparring with a noob, every so often I'll explosively move into him, kiai as loud as I can, wait for the startle response, then leisurely hit him where he left himself uncovered (Usually the lower ribs, since the startle response is almost uniformly to cover the head). I have no illusions on what would happen with a better trained opponent. But the fact is that it DOES work, sometimes. I think the point Chen's trying to make is that while training to fight stars, useful but limited little tricks like that get dropped from the technique "inventory".
I guess the answer still is to train to fight the very best, but not lose sight of the "lesser" techniques. I'm sure everyone will agree that after a while one can sense the opponents skill level and gauge whether or not one of the "kid stuff" techniques would work.
[/QUOTE]

Good answer. Thats part of the point. The other part of the point being that "Skill" is almost predictable.

Lets say you get a bunch of guys who train "high percentage". They use Boxing and BJJ and all these other things that become streamlined and mainstream in the end. If you only have five punches and one kick then you've got the wrong idea. How long will it be before you become predictable?

Daily decrease is good but variety isnt a bad thing.

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#135825 - 01/09/05 11:06 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1736
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Good answer. Thats part of the point. The other part of the point being that "Skill" is almost predictable.

Lets say you get a bunch of guys who train "high percentage". They use Boxing and BJJ and all these other things that become streamlined and mainstream in the end. If you only have five punches and one kick then you've got the wrong idea. How long will it be before you become predictable?

Daily decrease is good but variety isnt a bad thing.
[/QUOTE]

Good point!
And how about the flip side: You start expecting predictably advanced techniques from the opponent. I can't remember how many times I've gotten nailed by a noob who just flailed out with an off- the- wall panic response (Interestingly, most times I'd wind up with a finger in the eye in some way. The panic response seems to include flailing out with extended fingers instead of fists). I used to get mad at myself every time it happened, attributing it to my own incompetence or lack of alertness, until I heard others much more advanced than me talking about the same thing happening to them. Then again, maybe it's just that we were ALL a bunch of incompetents!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

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#135826 - 01/09/05 09:22 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MAGon:
Good point!
And how about the flip side: You start expecting predictably advanced techniques from the opponent. I can't remember how many times I've gotten nailed by a noob who just flailed out with an off- the- wall panic response (Interestingly, most times I'd wind up with a finger in the eye in some way. The panic response seems to include flailing out with extended fingers instead of fists). I used to get mad at myself every time it happened, attributing it to my own incompetence or lack of alertness, until I heard others much more advanced than me talking about the same thing happening to them. Then again, maybe it's just that we were ALL a bunch of incompetents!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

[/QUOTE]

It happens more often than people like to admit.

There seems to be a common rythm and weapons set between fighters of skill. They all seem to go at a similar pace. Its slower than they actually are to conserve energy and adapt to the opponent. Then the break in rythm lands the attack.

And the weapons become the same. The punches are similar to boxing. Jab Jab reverse punch. I dont know how many 4th or 5th dans have thrown that very combination at me. Or snap front kick to punch. It seems like everyone stops what they're training in, does MMA for two years and become automatic masters. They all fight; the same its boring. Its also predictable.

What would you expect more from an opponent a jab or a knife hand? The punch, yet its the first weapon someone will use. This isnt a diatribe against the jab its just an example. Maybe theres nothing to it and its all beginers luck and ego on the part of "superior" students. Or maybe some of these "skilled" warriors are to biased to their own methods to see that they might have overlooked a few things when they were busy streamlining everything.

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#135827 - 01/10/05 08:11 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


'Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.'

Bruce said it best himself:
"Train against anyone and everyone. Somtimes a clumsy man can mess you up more than a skilled fighter. Someone that attacks you clawing and kicking who wont let up!"
I have to agree. especially when you confront people that do not care if they die.
These are the worse type of opponents.
There are quite a few individuals that have come from broken homes, and/or are living a less than ideal life. Now, add to this the guy may be hopped up on meth, or angel dust or what have you, he will feel no pain. You must take him out of the equation immediately!
Another comment from Lee's 'Longstreet' appearance. Quote: "You must learn the art of dying. To learn to die is to be liberated from it". How true. It is only when you hold life precious in the heat of combat that will nearly secure your doom.
To sum up...train with anybody that will put the full contact gear on with you. There is ALWAYS something to learn, even from the most unskilled fighters.

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#135828 - 01/10/05 10:10 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


'Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.'

Bruce said it best himself:
"Train against anyone and everyone. Somtimes a clumsy man can mess you up more than a skilled fighter. Someone that attacks you clawing and kicking who wont let up!"
I have to agree. especially when you confront people that do not care if they die.
These are the worse type of opponents.
There are quite a few individuals that have come from broken homes, and/or are living a less than ideal life. Now, add to this the guy may be hopped up on meth, or angel dust or what have you, he will feel no pain. You must take him out of the equation immediately!
Another comment from Lee's 'Longstreet' appearance. Quote: "You must learn the art of dying. To learn to die is to be liberated from it". How true. It is only when you hold life precious in the heat of combat that will nearly secure your doom.
To sum up...train with anybody that will put the full contact gear on with you. There is ALWAYS something to learn, even from the most unskilled fighters.

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#135829 - 03/04/05 03:01 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does. [/QUOTE]

Before spending(wasting?) time on thinking how to best train to fight the best, let's first focus on how this would change our training.
Probably not much. Would you all of a sudden throw your punches differently? How about your kicks then? No? Then what about your grappling techniques, such as the armbar, or the RNC. Would they be performed differently? Mine sure as h*** wouldn't. The major difference is the intensity of the training.

Amature muay thai fighters train like the best of 'em. The real difference is how skilled they are. The difference between the training of an amature fighter and the training of a world class fighter is the same.

Wanderlei Silva, Vitor Belfort, Yves Edwards and Randy Couture are all fighters who I hold in high esteem, but it would be naive to think that they train diffenrently from us, except maybe they have a tougher cardio workout and have more time to train, (since they have sponsors and are proffesionals). Most of them have trained muay thai and BJJ. But something makes them that much better. It's not magical different training, but hard dedicated training that makes the difference.

I'd say any of these guys would wipe the floor with whoever steps to them on the street.
Because of their generel understanding of the martial arts, because of their superior attributes.

So, IMHO, you should never train to "fight the best"... you should train to be the best! Hope that makes sense.

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#135830 - 03/04/05 04:32 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

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#135831 - 03/04/05 04:54 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by blackthumb:
I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

[/QUOTE]

Troll bait.


-John

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#135832 - 03/04/05 06:39 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by blackthumb:
I believe you should train to fight the ultimate all round martial artist, such as a taekwondo student for instance. The Taekwondo student trains at the best of all martial arts and is therefore the trickiest oponent to conquer.

[/QUOTE]

Let me guess, you also do TKD. Take it from me man, I had this kind of biased opinion for the better part of 12 years, there is no ultimate all round MA.

Sure, some students will be awesome, but I've taught some students who don't give a rats.

People are going to 'dis this post, don't take offense.

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