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#135813 - 12/06/04 10:04 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum? Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent.

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#135814 - 12/07/04 08:37 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Another thing I've noticed personally is when the situation unfolds its almost like slow motion. I'd blast my attacker with a punch or spin him and choke him out. The whole event seemed to last longer than it really did. I told a friend about this observation and he said he's heard the same thing from others who had to use their skill on the street. I guess its the adrenaline rush.

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#135815 - 12/07/04 10:34 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum? Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent. [/QUOTE]


Chen,

that was the point I was attempting to make with the relativity of "hig v.low". It also goes to economy of movement on another level too I think.
--------------------------------------------
I just think it's common sense that if you train for and against "skilled" resistance - then the average, untrained person will be a cakewalk.
Does that make ANY sense?

-John

Actually - it does and I wasn't disagreeing with you. Hope you didn't get that impression. Training in your style of JKD/MMA would seem to deal with the "average Joe".

I was really just trying ask "who/what" is the "best" fighter from a slightly different perspective based on Chen's thread starter.

Be well,

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135816 - 12/07/04 01:26 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


wot way would be the best way to train if you have no 1 to train with

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#135817 - 12/07/04 04:56 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
kempo_jujitsu Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/15/03
Posts: 1914
Loc: illinois, usa
my instructor just told me to fight whoever is standing in front of you at the time...in class...it just happens to be trained martial artists (of varying degrees)...also that way you BOTH get training...if you have one guy standing there throwing overhand punches...and wild lunging punches at you he benifits zero. he also said that we were not there to hurt or beat each other...every one of us is there to learn. another added plus to training alive as jkogas puts it, is BOTH participants reap benefits simultaneously
i often pondered this question because most of the people i trained with are more skilled than i am...then one day while outside of a local tavern a drunken friend of mine was...well...in a fit to put it mildly and he attacked me...he was so slow i almost laughed...so yes i would say its best to train to fight trained people..i agree with jkogas here.


[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 12-07-2004).]

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#135818 - 12/07/04 06:44 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Now, just because we all train in a dojo does that mean we face skilled opposition? Hardly. [/QUOTE]

Compared to the untrained, yes, it should mean that we face skilled opposition.

Skilled meaning, mechanically and fundamentally correct with decent attributes (timing, etc). Not everyone is going to be world class – but there is generally some basic skill.

Such as, a correctly thrown jab or cross as opposed to a swinging haymaker.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

Now lets look at the thought process behind the training. As an example, Muay Thai fighters are considered some of the very best fighters. Low level kicks and clinching may not turn up good results against a skilled Muay Thai fighter. Does that now make it ineffective and worthy of being dropped from a curriculum?
[/QUOTE]

Why not just train like a Thai fighter?

Who said low level kicks and clinching is unskilled?

Are they being done incorrectly or fundamentally flawed? If so, I would agree. There needs to be some fundamental structure. This is what I refer to as “skilled” opposition. That’s what we train for – the skilled. The Unskilled by comparison should then be a fairly easy event.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Absolutely not yet this is the thinking behind such training. Trapping in a standup situation is highly unprobable against skilled opposition, yet its easily applied to untrained or innibriated opponents. [/QUOTE]

But why bother when other more high percentage tactics and techniques are available, which DO work against the skilled and the unskilled alike?

When time is of the essence, you have to simplify. We don’t have the time to put toward low percentage tactics, when we’re busy training the one’s that are going to work in most cases (skilled or unskilled) anyway. It’s senseless to stop and say: “but we need to work more trapping because we need to be able to deal with the unskilled as WELL as the skilled.

Then the other guys say; “but what you’re doing against the skilled is going to work even BETTER against the unskilled!”

Then I’d be like; “whoa….that’s true. Why wasn’t I thinking of that?”

Hey, if you’ve got endless hours to while away, train however you guys would like. Meditate while standing on pylons one legged, jam your hands into sand pebbles (which really disfigures your hands) do kata and one step sparring. Practice your mook jong.

If you’re like MANY and have jobs, families, other responsibilities like myself, there’s no time LEFT to train technique which is unnecessary from the outset. I just don’t personally have the time for it. No worries however, because everything else that’s left and is high percentage is plenty anyway.

Bruce said it best: Hack Away The Unessential. Are we adding MORE stuff to the mix, or striving for daily decrease? I know what MY answer to that is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

The importance of the techniques you train ito the situations you find yourself in. What works for one opponent may not work for another. There is still a place for moderate and even low efficiency techniques when facing the average opponent.
[/QUOTE]

There may be a place, but there is no reason for training the low percentage. I mean, why would I even WANT to?

Classical trapping “may” work against some inebriated redneck. But I can guarantee that an underhook is going to work better. They both will accomplish the same thing. The underhook however will do me one better : It will afford me the benefit of superior position.

So, if I have to chose to spend the training time on one – which is it like to be put on; classical trapping or clinch work (modern trapping)?

These are just my opinions folks. Everyone’s on their own paths. Discover your own truths….I’ve discovered mine.

-John



[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-08-2004).]

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#135819 - 12/08/04 10:05 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nice post John.

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#135820 - 12/10/04 10:47 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
There may be a place, but there is no reason for training the low percentage. I mean, why would I even WANT to?

Classical trapping “may” work against some inebriated redneck. But I can guarantee that an underhook is going to work better. They both will accomplish the same thing. The underhook however will do me one better : It will afford me the benefit of superior position.

So, if I have to chose to spend the training time on one – which is it like to be put on; classical trapping or clinch work (modern trapping)?

These are just my opinions folks. Everyone’s on their own paths. Discover your own truths….I’ve discovered mine.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 12-08-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

You're looking too close to the details and not the idea that they imply, John. The question isnt about the technique but the thinking behind them. The techniques I mentioned were simply examples. The point was, just because something may not work against skilled opponents doesnt mean that it isnt a good technique. I never said clinching or low level kicks were a bad thing, what I said is you may not have success using them against a Muay Thai fighter of skill. Because they train that way. But just because it might not work as well or with less percentage against Joe Muay Thai doesnt mean that it wont work later against other opposition. Just like working the jab might not work against a boxer. Does it mean that you should drop the jab? No. It means when editing your own personal interpretations of JKD, be careful that you throw away something vital to your training.

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#135821 - 01/05/05 01:51 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does. [/QUOTE]

I made a living playing pool for several years. During this time I had to learn to play against people of all skills. From the ham fisted moron to the pros. Each skill level brought about entirely different situations. I'll admit there were some similarities amongst those who had a general idea of what they were doing but still each encounter was unique. Having thrived in this arena for several years i learned one thing. anyone can beat you regardless of skill level they can get lucky or they can out class you. I never once took anyone for granted as an easy win, I treated all comers as if they were the best. It was this mentality that kept me on top of my game for years. That said, i have applied this approach to my martial arts training and it has worked very well. IMHO if you train for just one style of fighter or train for the best guy your missing out on a wealth of information adn knowledge that can be gained from training and sparring with the lesser fighters or the unskilled. In my opinion the skilled fighter can be somewhat predictable, meaning that you can easier estimate what he will do as oppossed to the unskilled or lesser skilled fighters. In my view it is better to trin with the not-so-goods and the unskilled to learn to deal with the unexpected, then take that knowledge and apply it to the better fighters you spar or train with. I would bet you will improve dramatically adn will be able to take on and compete with the top fighters in a relatively shorter time. Just my two cents.

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#135822 - 01/05/05 11:46 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by thaiboxer:
I made a living playing pool for several years. During this time I had to learn to play against people of all skills. From the ham fisted moron to the pros. Each skill level brought about entirely different situations. I'll admit there were some similarities amongst those who had a general idea of what they were doing but still each encounter was unique. Having thrived in this arena for several years i learned one thing. anyone can beat you regardless of skill level they can get lucky or they can out class you. I never once took anyone for granted as an easy win, I treated all comers as if they were the best. It was this mentality that kept me on top of my game for years. That said, i have applied this approach to my martial arts training and it has worked very well. IMHO if you train for just one style of fighter or train for the best guy your missing out on a wealth of information adn knowledge that can be gained from training and sparring with the lesser fighters or the unskilled. In my opinion the skilled fighter can be somewhat predictable, meaning that you can easier estimate what he will do as oppossed to the unskilled or lesser skilled fighters. In my view it is better to trin with the not-so-goods and the unskilled to learn to deal with the unexpected, then take that knowledge and apply it to the better fighters you spar or train with. I would bet you will improve dramatically adn will be able to take on and compete with the top fighters in a relatively shorter time. Just my two cents.[/QUOTE]

Couldnt have said it better myself.

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