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#135803 - 12/05/04 06:28 PM Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Often,especially in JKD, you hear guys say that they dont train for the average joe, they train to fight the trained MMA. They train to fight the best opponents, the likes of whom could be seen on Pay per view. Ok. Thats all and good. I have an opinion on this, but first I want to see how many of you agree with this sort of training curriculum. I know JKogas does.

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#135804 - 12/05/04 07:10 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I feel it's important to train for the trained. That way you cover ALL the bases. If you can handle the trained, the untrained by comparison should be a walk in the park.

That said, its good to throw in the natural "broken rhythm" of some awkward shots every now and again (like the typical arm punches you see everyone on the street throw). You can do that during your "self defense" training if you have that sort of thing.

We run a program called ISR. You practice closing on guys throwing heavy shots. During such practice, you can put in whatever attack you want to put in - from the untrained arm punches, tackles done while the guy is running in bent over, to straight, crisp, non-committed shots, etc. The sky is the limit.

As I view athletic, alive training as the end-all, be-all, naturally that's going to mean using skill throughout the training sessions. As a result, you get accustomed to dealing with skill.

That's just going to mean a lot more to me when some untrained, unconditioned, "Joe Sixpack" comes swinging.


-John

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#135805 - 12/05/04 11:24 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Thats why I started the thread. Many people throw away useful technique because they only train for skilled opponents. Like the trapping in WC.

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#135806 - 12/06/04 02:49 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I suppose throwing something away like trapping is just in keeping with my notion of JKD concepts (simplicity and daily decrease).

I've thrown away a LOT of stuff in an effort to simplify. Does that mean my trapping is gone?

Hardly! It means that I don't do "traditional"/compound trapping.

The "trapping" is still there. Its just done differently (Greco-Roman/muay Thai).

What is the OBJECTIVE of trapping?

-John

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#135807 - 12/06/04 07:57 AM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmmm...

If people are "throwing away useful technique because they only train for skilled opponents", then wouldn't you assume that is because they found something better?

BTW, I find chi sao training to be extremely useful to close the gap and even in the clinch(somewhat).

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#135808 - 12/06/04 01:16 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Chen, real thought provoking topic!

Do you train, as John suggests, to fight a "trained fighter"? And IS that the "be-all and end-all". Part of me agrees and part of is saying - "Well, maybe, I'm not so sure." There is a real paradox here.

"Training" on ANY level, by virtue of what it is, IMPLIES some level of orthodoxy, even if the training involves incorporating reacting to or employing yourself some unorthodox techniques or strategy yourself, right? (I'm not trying to create some kind of BS conundrum for anyone to work their way out of.)

So, even if your purpose is to handle someone at a certain level of skill -say a highly trained MMA athlete - would you necessarily be successful against a less "skilled", more unorthodox opponent who is equally (if not more so) determined to prevail? My thought is probably so.

The other side is that if you DONT'T train to fight "MMA caliber fighters" (I'm not confident that I competely understand what that really means when people say it) am I somehow automatically giving something away? My inclination is to say no.

Personally, I haven't discarded any techniques that work for me. IMHO, the "high % v low %" argument is a relative one. If it works, it works. John and I have bantered this back and forth a few times but there are things that would probably be very LOW % against him (or you Chen) that could be realtively HIGH against someone else.

The logical question then is how do you know when that might be? If you 'train to fight only the best' your belief is that they are the "best" within a given circumstance right? - with some level of orthodoxy. What if it is/was the "best" guy who had been 'training' in a prison recreation yard for 4 or 5 years?

Not sure if I conveyed these thoughts the way I intended and hope that you get my intended meaning in spite of it.

Be well,

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by KiDoHae (edited 12-06-2004).]

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#135809 - 12/06/04 03:36 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think we're overlooking the fact that we ALL train with trained fighters. They are there to learn, just like you. We can't go around picking fights with untrained folk, just for training's sake. Anyways, I think the only live factor that separates a trained and untrained fighter (other than awkwardness and level of training, lol), and actually gives the untrained fighter a chance, is the broken rhythym of his attacks. This is a trait of our skilled fighters also (at least in my school), so how fine is the line between the two? I'd have to say you are probably better off training with skilled fighters, then You will practically own the untrained ones when you fight them.

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#135810 - 12/06/04 03:46 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


From what I've read at other posts, Chen Zen and JKogas train regularly in schools they either run or instruct at. Also, they attend seminars when they can for expert instruction which increases their martial knowledge. This alone puts them in a higher percentage category of fighter due to factors such as fitness, reflexes, muscle memory, etc. Add to this mix a desire to defend against the best fighters drives them to train harder, thus improving them.
Now, the liklihood of being jumped on the street by a "Paul Vunak" or "Mike Lee Kanarak" is highly unlikely as a true martial artist is not a street thug. However, there are crimanals who train, street thugs who are good fighters. I've been fortunate in my encounters. All mine were against unskilled attackers who got more than they bargained for and all left seriously injured. It's one thing to have a half delirious crack-head put a gun to your face and demand your money; quite another if he's a down-on-your-luck ex-Army ranger. You just have to be ready to handle whatever's thrown at you. In baseball terms, you have to take them yard no matter how hard they throw.

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#135811 - 12/06/04 05:42 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your observations about Jkogas and Chen regarding their training are accurate. For the record it is a ditto here too.

A crack head after your wallet is one thing, a down and out Army Ranger is another. A hard case who has never stepped foot in an MA dojo or MMA gym is yet another.

The question I guess I was trying to pose was by what standard do you judge your training if it is to "fight only the best"?

KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135812 - 12/06/04 08:15 PM Re: Training to fight only the best.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I just think it's common sense that if you train for and against "skilled" resistance - then the average, untrained person will be a cakewalk.

Does that make ANY sense?

-John

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