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#135584 - 10/25/04 03:53 PM a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


before i get to the point i would like to let u know that i respect all martial arts and there tradions!

i know JKD is a streetfighting method. infact i have talked to jesse glover through e-mail about its use on the street.

i personally reckon you have to have JKD second nature to use it effectively on the street.
and dont forget a streetfight is fast, fast, FAST! its awkward postions, and violence etc.

Put it this way.
a jkd guy gets into a confrontation with the best brawler in the country. this brawler is massive in build, not too tall, stocky, with a hard head, can take a beating, loves pain in a fight, powerful, has muscles,has a gud punch, fights dirty, he will do any thing to win, he has the will, he is very ferocious.

now first you will need to have confidence in your skills to fight with him cos if u dont and u throw a punch and u break your own hand and get the guy angry, ur in for a surprise! you will need to be very very very strong. i mean a streetfight does always get the point where u punch, GRAB punch punch FLOG EACH OTHER ABOUT punch,

basically u cant really have a brawl like your sparring, everything in a streetfightlike a punch is thrown where eva the hand happens to be. u dont have a stance. so when i see all this sticky hands stuff, it luks top but if you figt a brawler i jus described, by the time u finish dancing you'll be knocked sparko!!!

brawlers do have skill, skill which is natural. punching,grapplin, the grAPPLing is natural cos if ur strong u can grapple with someone, u might no know the moves but yu will survive in that postion. they know where to hit ya. they have had so many fights, n so much experience that they develop skill. i dont mean martial arts type of skill but they know what is street effective.

jesse glover agreed with what i have to say. he believes these men are born with it, they become hardmen cos of literally non stop fighting, they have red hot tempers!

i think thats what i call a real fighter.
now dont say ur a martial artist, ppl use martial arts for different use, some for peace and some for skill for fighting.

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#135585 - 10/26/04 02:18 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


hmm interesting Most JKD ppl would just avoid the brawler the best way to defeat an oppenent is not to engage dont get me wrong skills are important I study jKd to and am confident in my skills but if a brawler like that attacked me I would shoot them I wouldnt engage a real fighter dont fight they avoid if they cant avoid they adapt

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#135586 - 10/29/04 07:20 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


hey sounds like you met my brother! we have gone to blows a few times. ( tough love ) and he's never won a fight. not to be conceeded but even the bigger brawler types have weaknesses that can be exploited. no matter how seasoned they may appear. there will always be a flaw somewhere to be exploited and taken advantage of. however AgenT was right. the martial artist would always find a way to avoid any unneccessary conflict. now to play s advocate, can we pit the best brawler in the country against the best JKD practitioner in the country? i got a c note on the JKD guy.

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#135587 - 11/12/04 11:18 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


i have fought plenty of those creatine boneheads, and trust me, they are usually easier to beat than the smaller guys. They are usually slower, less mobil, and far less flexible. Sure, they're strong, but that only helps to a point. When striking, it doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit the guy, and when it comes to grappling, I'd put my money on a skilled grappler over a strong one (can anyone say Gracie?). There are too many Chin Na/Shuai Chiao/Jujutsu/Aikido techniques that work around the opponents muscles, and go straight to the joint.

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#135588 - 11/12/04 12:32 PM Re: a real fighter
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SPIKETyson:
before i get to the point i would like to let u know that i respect all martial arts and there tradions!

i know JKD is a streetfighting method. infact i have talked to jesse glover through e-mail about its use on the street.

i personally reckon you have to have JKD second nature to use it effectively on the street.
and dont forget a streetfight is fast, fast, FAST! its awkward postions, and violence etc.

Put it this way.
a jkd guy gets into a confrontation with the best brawler in the country. this brawler is massive in build, not too tall, stocky, with a hard head, can take a beating, loves pain in a fight, powerful, has muscles,has a gud punch, fights dirty, he will do any thing to win, he has the will, he is very ferocious.

now first you will need to have confidence in your skills to fight with him cos if u dont and u throw a punch and u break your own hand and get the guy angry, ur in for a surprise! you will need to be very very very strong. i mean a streetfight does always get the point where u punch, GRAB punch punch FLOG EACH OTHER ABOUT punch,
[/QUOTE]


It’s my understanding that, JKD should be trained exactly as one fights. Naturally we can’t gouge out our partners eyes, or hit him in the groin, etc. But you CAN train hard and athletically. You CAN develop your ability to hit, to grapple, etc. all while under fire from partners of various sizes and strengths, to better replicate what you are likely to face out “in the wild”, so to speak.

Its that sort of “preparation by replication” that will develop your ability to survive real fights. And I think it’s really all ABOUT survival and not “winning” so much, for success in going back home at the end of the evening. At least that’s it for me.

Big brawlers are out there. Most guys with successful street fighting experience are the brawler type. But, if you have partners who are big as well, you can go a long way toward mimicking in the gym, the same scenarios that offer the most threat.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SPIKETyson:

basically u cant really have a brawl like your sparring, everything in a streetfightlike a punch is thrown where eva the hand happens to be.
[/QUOTE]

I’m of the opinion that it’s better to throw from a tight structure like a boxer, and learn how to hit properly using good body mechanics. Brawlers just go for it. That’s not really maximizing their own power. Not only that, but swinging like that leaves you open for counters against guys who DO have good body mechanics. Brawlers are sloppy in most cases. In my opinion, there’s no excuse for sloppy fundamentals. Sound, scientific training is the answer to the brawler. Training like that is “supposed” to be what you FIND in JKD classes.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SPIKETyson:

u dont have a stance. so when i see all this sticky hands stuff, it luks top but if you figt a brawler i jus described, by the time u finish dancing you'll be knocked sparko!!!
[/QUOTE]

It’s really hard at times to comprehend what you’re saying. But I think I get the gist of it.

We (our gym and now others as well) dropped chi sao/sticky hands a long time ago, to better reflect what actually happens in real fights.

The reason why sticky hands doesn’t work that well is because of the way that the arms are outstretched away from the body and, the distance between the opponents. Having your arms away from your body like that is only asking to be knocked out. In boxing, that’s called “reaching” or “pawing”. The hands need to stay NEAR the head and body with the elbows tight.

The distance that sticky hands is performed in really doesn’t exist in real fights either (at least not among skilled fighters). That distance is what we refer to as the “range of exchanges” (ROE). That’s where both fighters are usually just flailing about. Trying to “trap” a powerful puncher in that distance is more than a little risky if you ask me.

In that distance, both guys are within range where they can both throw rapid, multiple count combinations. At that speed, trying to trap something is insane! Yet, you’ll watch MANY people stand there in that non-moving, pigeon toed stance and do chi sao. It’s just not the most realistic form of practice if you ask me.

What I’d like to see are guys doing chi sao while moving around and throwing full on punches like a brawler would! That would be great! You would see very quickly why that range isn’t realistic.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SPIKETyson:

brawlers do have skill, skill which is natural. punching,grapplin, the grAPPLing is natural cos if ur strong u can grapple with someone, u might no know the moves but yu will survive in that postion. they know where to hit ya. they have had so many fights, n so much experience that they develop skill. i dont mean martial arts type of skill but they know what is street effective.
[/QUOTE]

That’s certainly true in some cases. That’s not to say that their “skill” is based on sound technique. It’s “worked” for guys like that because of “attributes” in most cases (being big, fast, stronger, than their opponents). I guess that’s fine so long as they always plan on being the bigger, faster and stronger guy, lol.

And THAT is where proper technique comes in. That’s how you level the playing field a bit more.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by SifuSkyler:
i have fought plenty of those creatine boneheads, and trust me, they are usually easier to beat than the smaller guys. They are usually slower, less mobil, and far less flexible. Sure, they're strong, but that only helps to a point. When striking, it doesn't matter how strong you are if you can't hit the guy, and when it comes to grappling, I'd put my money on a skilled grappler over a strong one (can anyone say Gracie?). There are too many Chin Na/Shuai Chiao/Jujutsu/Aikido techniques that work around the opponents muscles, and go straight to the joint. [/QUOTE]


I don’t know if I would say that larger guys are necessarily easier to beat. Again, it’s all relative to their skill and conditioning.

One thing I HAVE noticed is that a lot of bigger and/or fatter guys (and muscle heads too) tend to gas quicker than the smaller guys. If your conditioning is where it should be, you should have no problem beyond the 30 second mark with many larger guys. Of course that’s all relative too isn’t it? Some big guys are in tremendous condition. Just chalk situations up like that to it just not being your lucky day!

Skill certainly does matter! A smaller guy who has been taught to punch using proper body mechanics can punch harder than a guy a hundred pounds heavier who doesn’t HAVE body mechanics (Of course, if the bigger guy DOES have them, that’s not someone I want to box with…).

And grappling skill can definitely even the playing field. Royce Gracie was a great example of that, beating guys like Shamrock, Kimo and Dan Severn (who outweighed him by a hundred pounds).


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 11-12-2004).]

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#135589 - 11/12/04 05:26 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


SPORT IS SPORT. YOU MUST SPAR SIMULATING REAL STREET ATTACKS.

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#135590 - 11/12/04 06:45 PM Re: a real fighter
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Oh yeah...

Make sure you're all ripping out your partners eyeballs and crushing his testicles too.

I almost forgot.


-John
36.1 N 80.2 W

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#135591 - 11/13/04 05:42 PM Re: a real fighter
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
JKD is a brutal art. The JKD man fights much like this street brawler you describe. A jkd practitioner is willing to use whatever technique he can to win. Efficiency is anything that scores. We just do it with style!

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#135592 - 11/16/04 05:08 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey John, do you see any problem with the use of eye goggles to practice eye jabs against? I also have heard of the use of finger jab bags. What do you think of those?

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#135593 - 11/25/04 09:55 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've talked to some of the top monks kung fu fighters in shaolin about the effectiveness of kung fu in a street fight and almost all of them laughed at me. They told me that the styles I've been praticing was not meant for street fighting but for building the base for street fighting as in building awareness, speed, hand eye cordination, etc. etc. And that if I wanted to use kung fu in a street fight I need to learn what they call kill strikes. And that the only way for kung fu to be effective is if you are willing to kill in combat.

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#135594 - 11/25/04 05:55 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


First of all hello evry1 this is my first post, just want to say I’ve been training JKD really hard for almost a year now, before that some ITF TKD,
Anyway, some important points here,
Big guys usually have poor footwork, and soul of JKD is footwork, without it everything else is useless, fast small guys are usually more dangerous,
When the real fight comes you have to be very calm, like nothing is about to happen, if you got nervous, EVRYTHING you know is worthless, this is something you can not learn in class but must acquire over lifetime, Bruce Lee had several dozens of fights when a teenager, so experience is so important, in other words you must spar, spar a lot,
And to finish my rumbling, someone said sticky hands are useless in real fight, well actually they are exercises meant to develop sensitivity in the hands not actual fighting tools for the street.

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#135595 - 01/04/05 03:50 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Folks,
You guys talk about almost all martial arts but there is one form of Martial Arts in Kerala, India and that is called Kalari. Once you attend the highest level of skills and if the master finds you are the right person, he then teaches you a skill (a deadly skill) called the Varma kalai.
It deals with Human nervers and teaches how to bring a person to an unconsious state with just hitting the appropriate nerve in the person's body with just a finger.It is so deadly that it can even be used to kill a human.Its also used to cure nervous ailments and so on.
So guys, I personally feel you have to learn this type of skill after specializing in any form of martial Art and if you really think you are the right person not to misuse it.
With this type of skill aquired, you can challenge any brawler or any macho man for that matter.

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#135596 - 02/28/05 06:44 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by mouli:
Hi Folks,
You guys talk about almost all martial arts but there is one form of Martial Arts in Kerala, India and that is called Kalari. Once you attend the highest level of skills and if the master finds you are the right person, he then teaches you a skill (a deadly skill) called the Varma kalai.
It deals with Human nervers and teaches how to bring a person to an unconsious state with just hitting the appropriate nerve in the person's body with just a finger.It is so deadly that it can even be used to kill a human.Its also used to cure nervous ailments and so on.
So guys, I personally feel you have to learn this type of skill after specializing in any form of martial Art and if you really think you are the right person not to misuse it.
With this type of skill aquired, you can challenge any brawler or any macho man for that matter.
[/QUOTE]

LOL!!!

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#135597 - 02/28/05 10:11 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


the basic chinese priniciple about all things and elements in the universe is they exist through harmony. harmony refers to two interdependent forces moving without cessation. no one extreme can survive. the strongest tree is most easily cracked. the country's toughest brawler needs to remember that.
be firm, not hard. this is best explained by illustrating a chain which is firm but not hard.

when one fights they should fight as though they have nothing to lose. fight without the fear of losing your life, this will eliminate any final hindrance on the mind.

a good JKD fighter, once on the street, stays in harmony with his opponent. he does not send out weapons, the weapons send out themselves accordingly. this only comes through years of practice.

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#135598 - 03/28/05 12:03 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


Those big "brawlers" youre talking about thats not skill all that is is a learned response from countless fights in the street an back alleys, and yes trapping DOES work if you limit yourself to the basics when youre dealing with a big puncher or a boxer .I am speaking from experience all the muscle in the world and the hot temper in the world wont help him if you break his kneecap or his shin bone , or even use a destruction on the hand with an elbow( a fav of mine). Temper doesnt mean skill or strenght it means no self control , just dont let it intimidate you.

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#135599 - 03/30/05 12:14 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


Have you not watched World's Wildest Street Fights 1 & 2? It is the most laughable thing out there! 90% of punches are telegraphed haymakers, none of them know what to do on the ground, even when on top, and none of their punches have any power behind them. Street fighting for the most part is a joke.

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#135600 - 03/30/05 08:27 PM Re: a real fighter
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Fluid_Motion:
Hey John, do you see any problem with the use of eye goggles to practice eye jabs against? I also have heard of the use of finger jab bags. What do you think of those? [/QUOTE]

There's nothing wrong with eye goggles as at LEAST you'll have to fire on an alive, moving opponent. Forget about the jab bags.

I would limit the time spent on such practice as well. Work your JAB (punch) WAY more than your eye jab. If you can land the jab, you'll be able to land the eye jab.

Just keep in mind that the eye jab is TREMENDOUSLY overrated as a fighting tool.


-John

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#135601 - 04/20/05 10:18 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


I disagree john im my experience the eye jab is a great fighting tool, and its just as fast if not faster than the jab, remember its only meant as a feeler or distraction and everytime i have used it i get the reaction i need, it can be used to blind someone or take out an eye if you condition your fingers though, alot of the old time wing chun fighter in hong kong reportedly used to do it alot, keep the jab bag to condition your fingers.

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#135602 - 04/24/05 10:32 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


I agree with straightblast. An eyegouge done right is fast and hard to defend. If opens the street fighter up for more attacks. Street fights are usually large haymakers, and unintelligent punches being thrown at will. I KNOW that trapping and the chi sao range is perfect. If your dojo is throwing out chi sao because you believe it isn't effective then I feel truely sorry for your misleading sifu. He must not have really ever been taught correctly. Chi sao is in every fight! whether you know that or not.

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#135603 - 04/24/05 11:00 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


so many don't seem to understand the concepts and principles behind chi sao or other wing chun/jkd drills, this is why you make ignorant comments about trying to fight "with" chi sao...and equally ignorant comments about elbow positions

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#135604 - 04/25/05 05:13 AM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the misconception is that chi sao is a fighting technique, but its not its an excercise and the compound trapping drills are excercises also meant to enhance sensitivity and hand flow and reaction, and the claim that that range does not exist is a myth because that is the great thing about trapping you can do it passively or offensively so if the range is not there you can make it there by pressing the fight, trapping does work its difficult but the rewards are well worth it man.

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#135605 - 04/25/05 09:09 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


so are ya saying that because we are born without the natural gifts of a street brawler, we have no right to use a tool like jkd to enhance what gifts we do have so that we can not get lit up by the brawler?

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#135606 - 04/26/05 04:15 PM Re: a real fighter
Anonymous
Unregistered


Confidence is the key factor in this "real fighters" that and just being as you put it " a bull" but that just means that they are big dumb animals. In my days of being a bouncer it doesnt always matter if one has muscles. (doesnt hurt to have them) Like a few have said in here use what sperates us from the other animals and use your greatest weapon which is reason. If that doesnt work then use you second greatest weapon...your element of suprise. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by Rougewarrior (edited 04-26-2005).]

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