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#135537 - 10/18/04 08:05 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.

I'm in his head now mate. I'll tell you one experience Ihad with a rushing attacker. When I was probably 13 or so I had made a smartassed comment to a bigger kid at our school. (Imagine that). Next thing I know he wants to kick my ass after school. Going toe to toe didn't seem to be a good idea so I started to move backwards away from him slowly. He was like hey punk where you think you're goin? and started after me. Then I turned and bolted with bigboy hot on my heels. He was getting madder and madder. I ran for about 50 yards Until I could hear him huffing a bit. I started to slow up, then as he started to reach for my shoulder from behind I hit the brakes and dropped into a tight ball on the ground. Bigboys momentum carried him over the top of me ass over elbows. After he hit the ground he didnt have the legs to continue the chase. Plus he had a nice scrape on his forhead. Then I just headed for the hills as they say.


My teacher says defending is a losers game.

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 10-18-2004).]

#135538 - 10/18/04 12:38 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Actually, I had just posted a post on one of Oldman's threads and was thinking about writing another one there when I wrote the above post. It was actually meant to be directed to the Wolf.

#135539 - 10/18/04 06:34 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.

Hi guys

I was wondering what was going on??!! [IMG][/IMG]

Chen....I personally wouldn't retreat backwards and defend....I've learnt the hard way that real safety is forwards not backwards!!!!! I'm now learning to ENTER into the flurry and end up in some type of clinch (which ever I can get).....this is the first priority for me....stopping the flurry and making myself safe....generally people use multiple strikes in the street....

Once I have the assailant in a clinch with my full body weight leaning on him and my head buried in his chest...then I can react....I'm learning to fight from this position rather than having the space cushion that's employed in most striking arts. From this clinch..anything goes .... takedowns ... chokes (if you can get them) a knuckle to the ear lobe....using the head under the chin to help in a take down......moving to a headlock to shoot the guy to the pavement....what ever the situation calls for...
Just to clarify...I wasn't talking about just standing there or back peddling and using magical blocks... I was talking about "jamming" the assailant by entering....

The Wolf

#135540 - 10/20/04 10:50 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah, I see. Jamming is good but I would prefer stop hitting. Im a striker by nature and I seem to use less energy striking then trying to force my position or my opponent into a position. Also with going for the clinch there is the chance the opponent will stop hit. I also believe that if I stophit instead of going for the clinch then there is less chance for my opponent to make a move. Grappling and clenching can go either way and if it goes bad you're in a bad way. With striking the opponent is more apt to try and defend or counter instead of attack. Once on the defensive it is hard to mount an offense if you are being pressed. So stop hit, then press the attack. Then if that fails you are better setup for the clinch or takedown. You're opponent will either be defending and backpeddling, or he's going to counter hard. Either way you have a good chance of landing the takedown, then going for the mount and pound.

#135541 - 10/21/04 02:38 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.

Hey Chen

Very good points.....
I think that part of the issue is...what is "excessive force" for a martial artist... I've been training to restrain rather than strike....sometimes strikes are necessary....I can appreciate this.
However, Martial Artists seem to be on the losing side of court battles.....always!
I think having a first reaction to restrain rather than strike is physically, and morally a more viable option.
There have been recent deaths involving bouncers in all of these night club deaths...some type of strike did the damage.... experienced bouncers (door people) fought with patrons as if they were their equal.....and people have died.....

I have no problem with striking if it is absolutely necessary......and the situation would determine last post was in the context of being able to choose to restrain rather than strike....
Entering...or jamming can be done in many can jam an opponent with a jab...uppercut elbow...headbut....etc...if you choose to...or need to....
I point I was trying to make though is to actually enter (forward) somehow rather than back peddle and defend.....

I hope this helps to clarify the path I was on..

The Wolf

[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-21-2004).]

#135542 - 10/28/04 09:55 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Sorry to be so long in replying. I now moderate two forums and am back in school so my time is short.

If you were in a confrontation, would you not treat your opponent as your equal? I mean not to justify killing an opponent, especially a drunk one, however, one must also consider, that since the opponent is innebriated then his judgement is cloudy. He may very well intend to kill you and his buddies may intend to try to as well when they see you put down there friend. I sympathize with the families of the patrons but can hold little fault against the bouncers.

I think a strike is almost always preferred. Its faster and requires less strength and energy. In a situation such as a bouncers in it would comprise nearly all offense, preffering to strike and move than get tangled with an opponent and be vulnerable to passerbys.

Restraining is good but it requires setup to be truly effective. Setup or telegraphing on the part of the opponent.
Without proper setup you will get hit many times before landing the restraining grab if you land it at all.

Also it feels like it leaves much to be desired in the way of defense. Id much rather have my hands return to me quickly after a strike then hanging out there attempting the restraint.

Also, who is to say that the opponent has the same moral values as yourself? He may not be trying to just hold you down, he most likely is trying to hurt you. What happens if you let go or he breaks the restraint? Now he is further angered. For the restraint to work you must do damage by way of a break or tissue tear or you must wait for the authorities. Both are risky. you are going to go to jail if you break the guys arm, if he starts it or not. Theres no telling how long the police could take for a call about a fist fight when they have other crimes going on. Restraining may put you in a worse position than simply knocking out the opponent.

However I do agree with your point. Move forward.

#135543 - 10/29/04 04:54 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MAGon Offline

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
...and am back in school so my time is short.

Good news indeed!!! Congratulations!

P.S.: As I told you in my E- mail, I haven't posted 'cause you and Muay Thai are on a roll.

[This message has been edited by MAGon (edited 10-29-2004).]

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