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#135527 - 10/13/04 10:24 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Chen

In this case....I guess we do....I have agreed with many of your comments before...but yes you are right....it seems we disagree on this one...(which is OK)...
I still feel that thinking of a technique is like "the finger pointing to the moon" (apologies for the cliché)....
I think the over all picture of "survival" (in this case) will see you through any encounter....techniques and applications are secondary...and take too long to think about in my opinion...the mind set is crucial....I think if your only plan is to survive....then you can't go wrong....the techniques will come automatically......

The Wolf

[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-13-2004).]

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#135528 - 10/14/04 05:47 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Muay Thai, dont tell people to be humble. No offense, but you are never humble my friend.[/QUOTE]


I am very humble! I have a problem with expressing myself using a form of expression called the english language [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I am crap at it and when I try to explain things I make myself out to be "apparently arrogant" and not listening...

...by the way wolf, I have said countless times I KNOW MUAY THAI IS NOT EVERYTHING! :d

This is not about Muay Thai this is about fighting and what benifits fighting in a ring has for anyone wishing to learn how to fight!

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#135529 - 10/14/04 06:13 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Lemme try to explain. Wolf you are hell bent on insisiting that you "do not think" during a fight but rather "rely on muscle memory".

This is what the debate is about its not about the usefullness of Muay Thai so please remove that idea rom your head [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

You must think in a fight, you cannot rely on something which your mind has no control over. Muscle memory to a certain extent is a part of the reaction but you MUST use your head. There are famous quotes by various types of fighters, one is "only a thinking man should fight". This is not about sport vs street this is about fighting full stop!

You must use your head (brain) you cannot go into a fight without thinking!

about 2 years ago I found myself in your country with 2 people one had a stick and I was fighting using my mind... its amazing how quickly the mindset changed, fight went into slow motion and I thought while I was doing!

If I would have relied on muscle memory then I probably would not have been able to thoughtfully do what I did in order to make my butt safe! Just for the record I used Muay Thai to defend myself.

You are saying you have no time to think. Ok, I know exactly what your talking about and this is what I am trying to explain to you. Read my words dude... I am not trying to patronise you and even though I may be younger than you what I am saying is fact! If you feel you have not got enough time to think that is because inexperience is clouding your mind...(I mean that in a non patronising way) the more, dare I say this, experienced you become the less chaotic a fight actually feels so then you have plenty of time to think, so it seems, and no need to rely on what novice fighters would rely on, muscle memory! do you understand what i am trying to explain? (meant in a nice way)

This is probably why you believe that muscle memory is the key to defense. Muscle memory plays a part but if you can think during a fight and rely on your wit and thinking mind then you will fight a hell of a lot better, quicker, sharper, smarter! ring or no ring.

We do daily repetitions, this is good, this develops muscle memory so you can perform the technique in the blink of an eye, this develops good solid technique... but you need to have a thinking brain while fighting. Any man who enters a fight (any fight) and does not think and finds himself against a thinking fighting opponent (street or ring) will have major problems. This is the main reason why when a match up for a sport fight is always evenly matched, they dont stick a novice who relys on muscle memory in the ring with a seasoned fighter who thinks and reacts. The way a man thinks during a fight, the way he fights mentally not the techniques used but the mindset of the fighter does not change in the ring or outside the ring, it simply does not change. The only things that change are the rules and strategy but as I have said before a thinking fighter (who thinks and doesnt rely on muscle memory) will know the rules have changed and so try to the best of his ability to fight according to the rules of the game... so in other words, if anything goes he will try to fight "anything goes".

An example. My coach in Thailand, Lex Sor Anucha, exLumpinee champion, Boran fighter (bareknuckle boxer) and now fights to earn a living while he is still officially retired. He fought in those Boran events, he has trained his butt off, repeating everything over and over again, Boran fights allow everything other than ground grappling, you can strike on the ground but not grapple on the ground(the spectators dont liek to wacth a grappling match). These fights, unless you know what I am talking of, are very like a "street" fight, headbutting, groin kicking and dirty tricks... he could have fought in one of these events then two weeks later fought in a Muay Thai event where half of the techniques allowed in Boran are illegal in Muay Thai... if he were relying on mucle memory surely he would have been doing what he was trained to do, no? his thinking mind helps him to think during his fights, his muscle memory does play a part but ultimately his mind is what is calling the shots.

Same with Buakaw. He is fighting k-1 and yet he is training daily 6-8 hours for Muay Thai bouts... he doesnt fight in K-1 like he does in Muay Thai because he is aware and thinking while he fights. Again muscle memory plays a part but it is not what he relys on.

On the street its the same. The skills and experience I have gained from the ring are like gold. I have fought in both forms, not just sparred but full contact hard hitting fighting and I now know that when you actually think and strategise in BOTH areas of fighting you will hold a much better chance of winning but I also know that to speed this thinking process up making a fight seem slow you must have experience.... this is the way of fighting. Experience is the key to being able to fight well inside or outside the ring.

Ok you're older now, then dont worry about it, just for the record I have a friend who retired at 40 as WKN world champion Kickboxing.

You can train hard, get the odd soft sparring session in, believe me, you may think I am just arguing for the sake of it but i am not! Experience and "cleverness" is the key to fighting and winning in any situation. When I say cleverness I mean a diferent kind of cleverness, like a cunning cat, not academic, if it was based on academic cleverness I'd be doomed :P

think about it and ask some of your training partners what they think.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-14-2004).]

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#135530 - 10/14/04 04:51 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Ok now another thing which I may add,

during a competitive fight you will notice that sometimes when you have novice fighters you will see them both rush each other, from NHB to Boxing you can see novices rushing and flailing. Ok now, think about this. Through time the fighters gain experience and quickly realise that simply rushing an opponent only drains energy and makes them vulnerable because they are tired.

On the street, you do not know who you are fighting, if a man rushes you flailing wildy and you are trained and have competitvely fought you will quickly know this and how to exactly deal with it.... for me personally, a flailing guy is easy pickings but an accurate and hard hitting boxer is bloody hard work to deal with. I know, I got KO'd just a few months back there by one.

Muscle memory takes you so far but you gotta rely on whats in between your ears! Your brain.

Street or ring. Fighting is fighting, inexperienced fighters inside the ring or outside the ring tend to always fight with the same method, rush, flail, puff & pant, grab pull shove... tired, then bang! They breath through their arses, they go into tunnel vision (which again is what you dont want) their limbs feel heavy and they loose control. They will be beaten by an experienced fighter, a fighter who has gained experience inside or outside the ring, it doesnt matter! Experience, using your wit, thinking and relying on your cleverness and cunning is how to defend yourself against even the most unpredictable of attackers.

Of course no one is ever prepared for a sneaky punch!

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#135531 - 10/14/04 10:09 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hey Muay Thai

I'm glad it's back on track and civil this time!!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

OK....all of the fights you mentioned are "pre arranged" fights...moving from Boran to Muay...is a pre thought out concept.....there is plenty of time to prepare before the fight.....also, there is naturally adrenaline before a fight....the more experienced you are as a ring fighter...the less the adrenaline "hit"....

But on the street....it's generally never "pre arranged"...... unless you yourself go out looking for "trouble".....my point here is that the adrenaline dump will affect even proficient ring fighters in the street because it is not a pre arranged fight....there is no certainty of the rules that your assailant will be fighting by......you haven't seen him fight before so you don't know how good or bad he is.....your corner can't save you by throwing in the towel......there's an added element of danger (more so than than a ring fight) and there is no one to stop the assailant doing grievous bodily harm after you are KO'ed (if this was to happen).....all of this uncertainty and "shock" of the encounter produces adrenaline...unless you are superhuman. The street is not a sparring session or ring fight...the street is.....the street...

Studies have shown that YOU CANT THINK STRAIGHT while under the influence of an adrenaline dump.....
But even if you choose to ignore this fact....time is still a factor in my opinion.

I just think that wasting time and thinking of a specific technique can be costly in the street....sometimes there is not even the chance to "view" the assailant...the assailant will not give you a chance to "shape him up"...there will be no "stick and move"....or jostling for position..there will only be straight out attack.....
I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend...
This is a plan though....I don't think of specific techniques....basically I aspire to enter, pass and control....I'm still learning this method.....

Picture this.......from no where...an assailant starts to throw punches.........quickly.....what's your response....what did you just think about......I bet the first techniques you just thought of is what's programmed through muscle memory.......or your favourite techniques....also muscle memory....

Some times we are not at liberty to think......

These are my humble thoughts
The Wolf



[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-14-2004).]

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#135532 - 10/14/04 10:52 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
The thing about thinking in a fight is not to panic. The panic is what brings on the thought destroying Adrenal Dump. However, if you look at fighting like you look at everything else then it comes naturally. The adrenaline is still released but its slower. Like a drip instead of a dump. This is the optimal situation. To have the slow onset of adrenaline but still remaining calm enough to use your mind.

If there is no thought in fighting then what is focus?

Jeet Kune Do is the thinking mans art.

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#135533 - 10/15/04 07:06 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

OK....all of the fights you mentioned are "pre arranged" fights...moving from Boran to Muay...is a pre thought out concept.....there is plenty of time to prepare before the fight.....also, there is naturally adrenaline before a fight....the more experienced you are as a ring fighter...the less the adrenaline "hit"....
[/QUOTE]


No. Lemme try and explain. Adrenalin dump is experienced by even the most experienced fighters its how they use this to their advantage that differs, how the experienced fighter handles the adrenalin dump compared to a novice is what differs. A pre arranged fight happens like this... you are asked (usually) do you want to fight, you say yes, then you feel a little twang in your stomach, butterflies perhaps. Through the weeks of training this "feeling" becomes ever more present and stronger, this is Adrenalin (research this) being slowely released from the adrenal glands on top of each kidney, this gets stronger as the fight gets close. On the night of your fight you feel it rush through your body, how you handle this is what matters, novices usually relate this feeling to "fear", in a sense it is fear but the more you fight the more you begin to understand that this is only the body preparing itself for a fight that it knows it will be getting into.... the body cannot differntiate between sport or street all it knows is there is a fight soon and it is going to be part of it. The time of fight, the adrenalin dump happens. This adrenalin dump is no different from the adrenalin dump experienced outside of a ring, in fact, I find it much easier fighting outside a ring because I dont have that slow excretion of adrenal over a period of maybe months! seriously, you gotta experience what I am talking about.

Now, a street fight, out of the blue, your body goes through the exact same motions as it would before a sport fight, EXACTLY the same only now it happens within a split second. The adrenal dump felt is no different than what is felt during a "sportive" fight.... NO difference.

Sport fighting prepares you for adrenalin dump, it prepares you mentally for fighting and helps to develop your fighting skills. I hope that I have made some sense of that, I recommend you ask some qualified medic what exactly happens during adrenalin dump and what "fight or flight" is. I have done quite a bit of research myself to help myself understand what it is. Adrenalin dump is no different from a sport fight or real fight the only thing that may be seen as a difference is that during a street fight you have very little time to contemplate whereas a sport fight you know it is going to happen so have plenty of time to contemplate, what you do in both sport or street while adrenalin dump kicks has no difference.


[QUOTE]But on the street....it's generally never "pre arranged"...... unless you yourself go out looking for "trouble".....my point here is that the adrenaline dump will affect even proficient ring fighters in the street because it is not a pre arranged fight....[/QUOTE]

Read my points above. Pre arranged doesnt mean a thing, its a real fight mate with real adrenalin and real pain. A ring fighter with experience will be able to handle adrenalin dump be it on the street or in a ring, there is no difference, research it. Thats what i am saying, its the same adrenalin dump, no different. Time is all that sets both apart. I'd prefer not having to wait or to find out I was fighting one night before as the wait is a killer and to be honest if you can go through 2 months of slow release of adrenal and then fight well on the night then on the street when its instant you will undoubtably perform very well (I have done and will continue to do so as long as I have my wit about me)


[QUOTE]there is no certainty of the rules that your assailant will be fighting by......you haven't seen him fight before so you don't know how good or bad he is.....your corner can't save you by throwing in the towel......there's an added element of danger[/QUOTE]

Hmmm.... the points you've made, I dont know exactly what you're trying to say but I kind of disagree with you. A ring fighter is a thinking human being, mate how many times have you fought? how many times would you say you have experienced the adrenalin dump on the street and in a ring (not sparring but for real) You dont need to answer here but ask yourself that question. On the dreaded street I feel quite safe to a certain degree, why? because the majority of arse ends cant really fight! I (as a sport fighter) may fight in competition bound by rules but on the street I know these rules dont exist and now a "new" set of rules are in place... these new set of rules I am already quite familiar with and I am very sure the majority of "ring" fighters are also quite familiar with, not many pacifists step into a ring to fight, know what I mean? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] its usually the kind who like to have a punch up climb into a ring, I say usually because nothing is ever set in stone.

[QUOTE]there is no one to stop the assailant doing grievous bodily harm after you are KO'ed (if this was to happen).....all of this uncertainty and "shock" of the encounter produces adrenaline...unless you are superhuman.[/QUOTE]

Silly arguement. haha. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Of course sport fighters, at least those who can "think" [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] are aware of the added risks of fighting without a referee and doctors...


[QUOTE]The street is not a sparring session or ring fight...the street is.....the street...[/QUOTE]

man, weak argeuments again. The street is a hard piece of concrete the guys who fight on the street are guys just like the guys who a sport fighter fights in a ring, what makes you think they are any diferent? (well obviously a highly fit and strong individual training to fight and does so on a monthly basis, also sparring with other highly trained and fit individuals is different than the idiotic thug doped up or drunk who "usually" doesnt even know how to throw a punch, dont under estimate the skills that can be learned by ring fighting [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] trust me on that one) you have not gave a good explanation as to why you believe sport fighting is detramental to self defense.

[QUOTE]Studies have shown that YOU CANT THINK STRAIGHT while under the influence of an adrenaline dump.....[/QUOTE]

Myabe what you are meant to say is "studies have shown that INEXPERIENCED fighters cannot think straight while under the influence of adrenalin dump"

[QUOTE]But even if you choose to ignore this fact....time is still a factor in my opinion.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you but when experience comes into it I dont agree with you [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]I just think that wasting time and thinking of a specific technique can be costly in the street....sometimes there is not even the chance to "view" the assailant...the assailant will not give you a chance to "shape him up"...there will be no "stick and move"....or jostling for position..there will only be straight out attack.....[/QUOTE]

Again you are totally missing the piont, there is a split second of thought process in the mind of an experienced fighter, think of a fighter like a Formula 1 driver, does a formula one driver rely on muscle memory, I think not he thinks but his thought process is quick, damn quick! decisions made in split seconds. A fighter (experienced fighter) is capable fo doing this this is what sets him apart from the novice who relies on muscle memory.

stick and move, please remove that notion from your head. Again you are not listening to what i am saying. I am not want ing to argue with you but If you feel that maybe what i am saying is coming from my own fighting experience both on the damn dreaded street and in a ring then please, take the time to fully hear what i am saying because what I am saying is fact!


[QUOTE]I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend...[/QUOTE]

Funnily enough thats what we do as sport fighters. Strange huh? That a sport fighter actually trains to stop a flailing madman in his tracks or defend against a technical combo that is both fast, hard and pretty damn accurate.

[QUOTE]Picture this.......from no where...an assailant starts to throw punches.........quickly.....what's your response....what did you just think about......I bet the first techniques you just thought of is what's programmed through muscle memory.......or your favourite techniques....also muscle memory....[/QUOTE]

Been there and done it, my thoughs are usually "what the f***!!" and dodge what he has thrown, if it is dodgable! Then start whjacking him... whats the big difference, I just didnt have 2 months of slow adrenalin secretion before hand, thats all! I am not saying that muscle memory plays no part I am saying you DO NOT rely on muscle memory, or at least aim to not rely on what your mind is not controlling! Muscle memory plays a part in fighting but what wins fights fast and easily is your wit, the thinking mind, your cunning.

[QUOTE]Some times we are not at liberty to think......[/QUOTE]

When you as a person stops thinkinmg in a fight and the guy you happen to be fighting with is thinking and an experienced ring fighter what do you honestly believe the outcome will be?

Be honest. Do you really believe that you can solely rely on muscle memory when fight against a man who has fight experience gained from sport fighting who also thinks (and thinks like the F-1 driver, fast and sharp) using his wit and cunning, not panicking, used to his adrenalin dump, foucsed because after all he's been here before so is no stranger to pain or fight. What do you think the outcome would be.

Now do you see where I am coming from and what i am trying to, in a firendly way, encourage you to consider.



[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-15-2004).]

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#135534 - 10/15/04 07:26 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
I train to defend against a flurry of punches and kicks....(usually the way it comes in the street)coming all at once....also...I choose not to use stick and move....I attack to defend..[/QUOTE]

Ok, you chose not to use the stick and move. Take time to really think about this. What happens when you suddenly find that your "attack to defend" method doesnt work? The guy in front of you is starting to show signs of competance and skill, what do you begin to do? I will place a bet of a £1000 that you begin to, even if you dont want to, "stick and move" even on the street. You cannot fight someone who knows how to fight and has experience by simply rushing them, street or not, you cannot do this or you will get hammered! Its best to use your experience and quickly anylise him, try and take him as quick but if this doesnt work then you gotta think fast and realise that he knows what to do so then the fight changes strategy, its all about thinking. Rushing or flailing a competant fighter is teh dumbest thing anyone could ever do.

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#135535 - 10/15/04 07:54 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Wolf,

Suppose your opponent has a strong offense. Would you still simply stand and defend while he rushes you? When you said this did you imply that you prefer the defensive mindset?

Personally, I believe defense is the weaker aspect of fighting. Fights are won by attacking not defending. Im not saying dont defend, Im saying if you have the choice to attack or defend you should always attack.

[This message has been edited by Chen Zen (edited 10-18-2004).]

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#135536 - 10/18/04 06:39 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
Chen mate, Oldman hasnt posted on this thread, lol, are you smoking something???

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