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#135517 - 10/12/04 10:14 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

Listen mate, not meaning to blow me own trumpet here or anything but what you gota understand is this... I know from my own experiences, and believe me, I am not simply jumping on the "I live in a rough neighbourhood so I know" bandwagon. I know because I lived that very life, I know because I fought on an almost weekly basis for absolutely no other reason other than ego. I know because I have knowledge of ring and street strategy and there is no major difference. when you fight you fight using your head, you thgink what you are aiming to do and you react and counter react while alwasy staying a couple of steps ahead, or at least this si what you aim to do. This is the strategy of fighting not sport or street but simply fighting full stop.

You are completely misunderstand what a ring fighter knows and what he actually does. A ring fighter is not some stupid guy who only thinks one way, thats utter bull and yes it is very ignorant to think so and if I sound arrogant then so be it [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] A ring fighter knows the art of fighting, that is he knows how to strategically fight in different situations because his experience has taught him that. For example, a ring fighter who knows his weakness will try to avoid them if at all possible.... understand, he wont simply fight the same way all the time. A ring fighter in my opinion would take most martial artists who have never fought.

I will not stand there in a bar when someone hits me and then chose to fight like I do in a competition, what makes you think I or any ring fighter will do that? Complete ignorance is what that is. Muscle memory, yep that exactly what a good fighter doesnt rely on, he relys on his "wit". Wit is the best weapon a fighter can have, Faking and strategising in ANY fight is what wins fights, ussing your experience and "wit" is what wins fights. I know because my friend I have been there and I hate blowing my own trumpet but it has to be done. It amazes me that there ar estill many many martial artists who havnt a cxlue about fighting. There are guys I know who have never set foot inside a dojo or a boxing gym and walk through most MA's I have met, without a problem. It scalled experience and wit two things that cannot be taught to you they MUST be experienced. The safest way to build experience and develop your fighting "wit" is by safely fighting, this is where sport fighting comes into play.

Now Wolf, I mean no disrespect to you and you can think what you want about me, but mate fighting is the only way one will get better at fighting, how you gain this fighting experience doesnt really matter so long as you gain it. If you want to be good at fighting the you gotta fight, so what do you do? Go looking a fight every weekend or fight in a competitive arena? There are only so many convictions you can get before you get locked up and only so many times luck will be on your side on the "street", at least in a ring I know that I am safe and I know if anyone is seriously hurt there wont be some charges placed on myhead.

Strategy changes with every fight, EVERY fight has a different strategy why do you still think that a ring fighter wont be able to think a new stretgy for this new fight he finds himself in??? what makes you think a ring fighter is lost without ropes and a ref?

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-12-2004).]

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#135518 - 10/12/04 10:21 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf
[/QUOTE]


Another thing, the videos I posted. There are some of fighters called Buakaw, Dekkers, Silvia... these guys are ring fighters, would you say you could take these guys out on teh street...

....mate, come out of this way of thinking and realise the benifits of ring fighting.

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#135519 - 10/12/04 10:26 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:

Acting simply on reflex is folly. Suppose you spar alot and you react to a front kick by blocking downwards and countering. This has become your reflex, your instinct. Now you fight a skilled opponent and he throws a front kick at you. You block and he throws another. The third time he is waiting for it and you didnt even realize that you were doing the same tired technique because you werent thinking.
[/QUOTE]


Chen bloody Zen!!! EXACTLY! That is my exact point and this is exactly what we as sport fighters are taught, this is the philosophy behind fighting. No set patterns, nothing, learning quickly what your opponent is capable of doing and capitalising on that. A good fighter does this in seconds not minutes, he doesnt need minutes or rounds. This is fighting, relying on muscle memory will get your arse handed to you by someone using their wit and experience becaus emusckle memory is what novice fighters basicly rely on because their "wit" and capability of thinking during a fight drops to ZERO, lack of experience.

Good comments Chen, I must say.

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#135520 - 10/12/04 07:34 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all

Muay Thai....I can see that you are very passionate about the ring.....I can appreciate this.
Let me just mention again that I spar myself on occasion...and I am trained by a former WKA champion (He fought Muay Thai and was the Chief instructor for Muay Thai in our system as well)....please don't assume that I have never jumped into the ring !!!!


Just to answer your question......if I was to come up against any of the fighters that you mentioned.....it would be a dire situation that's for sure......(I'd be in big trouble... ha ha ha)...however.....one thing that I can definitely confirm is that I wouldn't be kickboxing with them in the street !!!!!
Why would I choose to fight them in the way that has them at an advantage......I would be looking to restrain and submit (break) as quickly as possible....maybe taking it to ground to give me a level playing field...maybe using the GET system if I was really in trouble.....over in 15 secs...either me or them!!!!

Can I just clarify that I don't want to "learn how to fight"....fighting takes too long....and I'm not getting any younger.....I want to learn how to protect myself....
The lure of the ring faded with me while I was in my 20's......now I look for other things in my MA....but ultimately I look to finish an encounter in the quickest possible time....basically.....my assailant throws something.....and I control it and finish it quick.....no rounds....no ref......no points....

There is a difference between sport and reality in my opinion.....

The Wolf

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#135521 - 10/12/04 10:11 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


BTW

I totally agree with John K on this one...

The Wolf

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#135522 - 10/12/04 11:18 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
No time to think John? How would you know that the technique being used is the best technique or even the proper technique without thought? One should always be thinking about what happens next and what happens if that fails.

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#135523 - 10/13/04 12:37 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi Chen

I think John is right here.....not so much in a ring fight...but in a street encounter...there's not much time for thought.... most of the encounter is governed by instinct.....

Picture this....a flurry of punches and kicks coming at you hard and fast from a bigger and angry agressor.....now keep this onslaught going in your mind for 10 seconds.....

What did you think about....my guess is survival...not specifically any technique...this is the way I work anyway..

The Wolf

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#135524 - 10/13/04 06:13 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
The Wolf, then mate I am sorry to say you are completely disallusioned... completely.

You will get your ass handed to you by a comepetant ring fighter.

Let me give you a prime example. A mate of mine moved here, Belfast, from Manchester UK. He was in the British Army and never had a Martial Art lesson in his life, he was however a good "boxer" who also fought for the army. This guy is small, 5.5ft a good 65kg, pretty nice fella. His accent got him into a major problem one time(it is Ireland after all and he is English) and guess where this problem was? yep you guessed it it was on the dreaded street. He lost the tip of his little finger in this encounter and got repeatedly stabbed by a knife but he was one against something like 6-9 people. He smashed many faces and did a cracking job of defending himself using nothing but his punching, ultimately he ended up in hosptial but the fact remains, some of those guys were also nursing wounds caused by his skills.

This man I would have absolute confidence in competantly defending himself against most Martial Artists.

You talk utter nonsense when it comes to fighting for real. JohnK is actually saying EXACTLY what I am saying, we both understand that you must strategise in any fight but think sharp and we both understand that fighting (testing) is of upmost importance if you wanna get better at fighting.

You say WKA this and you have fought, I dont know mate it seems to me you have had limited experience with fighting, that may sound very arrogant. [QUOTE]I can see that you are very passionate about the ring[/QUOTE] I am very passionate about whats right for fighting and ring fighting whether you agree or not has more positive effects on your fighting ability than not doing it.

I find it VERY hard to believe what you are saying because I have seen with my own eyes and experienced with my own blood that a sport trained fighter can handle himself (or herself) quite competantly.

Now that is generally speaking, obviously life isnt that smooth.

[QUOTE]Why would I choose to fight them in the way that has them at an advantage......I would be looking to restrain and submit (break) as quickly as possible....maybe taking it to ground to give me a level playing field...maybe using the GET system if I was really in trouble.....over in 15 secs...either me or them!!!![/QUOTE]

ah, yep, the dreaded moves you'll do to end it in 15 seconds. This is funny. This is exactly what i am talking about, comments like this only solidify my belief that you really dont know much about "real" fighting.

Its ok (and now comes my arrogance) there are many educated and logical people who chose to take a logical approach to fighting, they chose to look at fighting theoritically, theorise over such events as you described above. Firstly I just have to clear this up MUAY THAI IS NOT KICKBOXING! but that has nothing to do with a sport fighter being able to defend himself on the street.

What makes you believe that the guy you may fight is going to say, "oh yeah by the way I only train in Kickboxing so if you want you can take me to the ground"... what makes you believe that the guy in front of you is trained in the first place? What makes you believe that simply taking him into a lock and takedown then break will be that easy, just a 15 second afair?

nonsense I tell ya. Complete nonsense. You will not know who you are fighting and unless he is a complete idiot or totally legless and you sober you will probably find that the majority of what you said you will do you wont actually do it.

Now this brings me onto age. A young ring fighter will have you in a few moments. Dont doubt that. The older you get the slower you get. The weaker you get, reaching mid 40 early 50's then mate just do MAs for sport and keep fit because your fighting days, on the street or not, are coming to an end. A 25 year old Thaiboxer will have the majority of middle aged men without a problem, even if you know ground fighting, why? because strength and conditioning of the young buck will be of major advantage. I know this because just recently I was able to manhandle a MMA who was older, he couldnt do much because I out strengthed him and was out conditioning him. Strength and power are important and play a big part in the outcome of your fight. Then you can think what makes you believe he will look at you and say "ok I am going to fight this guy normally" why would you think that because your foe in front of you has fought in a ring he will then fight you like he does in the ring...

....Wolf rely on muscle memory, you are convinced this is what you need, thats ok. Muscle memory is what novice fighter rely on because they cannot think too much. A couple of seconds will go by and the "ring" fighter will realise that you are relying on muscle memory (fighting like a novice) and then proceed to hand your ass to you.

that is fighting. You gotta fight to be able to fight. You gotta spar and develop reflex and timing, rounds or no rounds, doesnt matter. You simply have got to spar and fight in order to be able to fight well. Dont do this and the guys who do do it will always be one up on you no matter what.

Be humble, accept that if what you do is detrimental to your fighting ability then it your own fault! Just realise that there is only one way that you can get better at fighting, by fighting. Realise that whatever way you gain your fighting experience doesnt really matter so long as its a fight, realise that its not the "how you fight in a ring" that changes how you fight on the street but its "what you gain in the ring" that ultimately helps you on the street.

Now, are you saying that a ring fighter has a disadvantage over someone who doesnt fight in the ring? or would you say that a ring fighter has an advantage because he is regularly fighting against well conditioned fighters?

or would you think a man who trains in the dojo 3-4 times a week for an event that is highly unlikely to ever happen, who doesnt spar or test his fighting skills and totally relies on "muscle memory" will have the upper hand on a man who train 6 days a week, with peak physical condition, training hard to fight, developing his fighting wit and thinking mind to strategically defeat another EQUALLY as conditioned, equally as sharp and equally as focused fighter?

My money goes on the ring fighter.

But mate, if you add sparring, add testing into your training then you will become just liek the ring fighter, eventually. Relying on muscle memory is idiotic, for the reasons Chen pointed out, you never do the same thing 3 times. You gotta think about what you will do and what you are doing, you come up against a "thinking" fighter you are doomed.

[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 10-13-2004).]

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#135525 - 10/13/04 05:57 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Here we go again....

I feel that I need to clarify something....
I have never fought in the ring professionally.....I have no interest in this....I have been a sparring partner to professional fighters on occasion....this is what I meant when I said that I'm not a stranger to the ring....
I'm a family man who is well and truly over my testosterone filled youth and 20 year old ego.

I look for different things than you Muay Thai....I see things differently....
I look at continuing my training in the safest possible way....I have a responsibility to my family and that means that I generally don't want to get "beat up" in class....I have to go to work the next day......your comments about full contact fighting is falling on deaf ears ...... I don't care.
Your opinion is your own.....and you are entitled to it ......my life doesn't revolve around the ring....nor does it revolve around constantly fighting......

I have also had my fair share of encounters in the street....and I will rely on my experience and the experience of my instructors and the founder of our system to make up my mind.....not yours!!
You do what works for you.......I will not stoop to your level and call you ignorant......I choose not to go there.....but can I ask that you to keep an open mind......Muay Thai is great....but it is not everything my friend......you seem to have only one eye opened.......

For the record.....I disagree with you....I don't believe that the only way to learn to defend yourself is to "get beat up"........ or constantly fight....... I do not train to fight in the ring....so why should I use a professional fighters training methods??!!

I understand that you disagree with me.....let's leave it at that please.....no petty name calling is required here......

The Wolf

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#135526 - 10/13/04 09:20 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Wolf,
Then I suppose that we think differently. I cant use a plan so broad as "survive". While my ultimate goal obviously is survival, ten there is no need to think simply of that when encountered. Instead think of the means to the end. The technique. This is what I think about. I think about how close the opponent is, What area of his body is open, and whether or not the technique will stop him. Then I adjust accordingly. If the technique doesnt stop him then the process is repeated, with the occasional defensive technique inserted.

Muay Thai, dont tell people to be humble. No offense, but you are never humble my friend.

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