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#135507 - 10/09/04 11:45 PM Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
In a lot of previous threads many members here often argued that one could not think on his feet and make decisions while fighting. That you could not recognize skill or technique outside of its trejectory.

I think this is flawed. I believe that mental awareness in the face of danger is as desirable to a fighter as a strong offense.

A fighter of skill bases the fight off of his opponent. When his opponent lets his defense slip the fighter takes the open shot. He stays on the offensive until the opponent forces him to take the defensive. When the opponent steps back the fighter presses him harder. All decisions were based upon the opponent. When this is true then though must be possible when fighting. This is the way skilled fighters fight. Nothing is left to chance. Fighting based solely upon instinct and reflex is dangerous. You find yourself resorting to a few favorite techniques. Before long your running around in circles trying anything you can just to make a hit or keep from getting hit. Once you realize whats happening you've become overwhelmed.

A skilled fighter also recognizes skill in the opponent. He doesnt rush blindly. He watches things like footwork, rythm, speed, technique, stance. He guages his opponent by body language. He notices the demeanor of his opponent. Is he scared? Is he nervous? Is he fighting in rage? All things can be taken in to account and manipulated for the skilled fighters advantage.

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#135508 - 10/10/04 08:36 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
JKogas Offline
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Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I think what generally happens is, the "fog of war" inhibits the thinking process. Not to say that there still isn't some thought going on, but the rational mind is (can be) fairly impaired. This depends on how far into the conflict you've gotten though. Most of the time you can maintain a clear head BEFORE anything goes down. Afterward though, it's ON and you're just flowing and reacting.


-John

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#135509 - 10/10/04 04:40 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I think what generally happens is, the "fog of war" inhibits the thinking process. Not to say that there still isn't some thought going on, but the rational mind is (can be) fairly impaired. This depends on how far into the conflict you've gotten though. Most of the time you can maintain a clear head BEFORE anything goes down. Afterward though, it's ON and you're just flowing and reacting.


-John
[/QUOTE]
Yes but it is possible to remain calm WHILE engaged with the opponent. When calm there is no fog; just action and reaction based on a decision by you to utilize what technique may be correctly applied to the situation at hand.

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#135510 - 10/10/04 07:02 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
I think ultimately experience teaches you how to react. Returning to a situation you have been in countless times before will generally help you to feel what will usually happen next, this will develop your "relaxed" approach to fighting. Experience develops instinct instinct promotes clarity and complete control control help you as a fighter to be relaxed and continue, as john says, "flowing and reacting."

Its a beautiful site to see when you watch two very seasoned and experience fighters going at it, they make it look almost poetic, they exude absolute control and their muscles show little tension, they are relaxed, focused, thinking yet not thinking, reacting without thinking about reacting but thinking about what next to do after the reaction.... that is experience.

thinking too much about doing clouds what you should be really thinking about, what you should be doing after the counter or attack!

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#135511 - 10/10/04 11:14 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


The post below actually appears in another forum.....(my post) but it also fit's this dicussion...I'm not sure on the rule of double posting but I thought that this is a similar topic and my response is the same to both threads.....

Very interesting topic.....here's my 2 cents guys......

I think we should also take the adrenal dump into consideration......it's not easy to think or produce an intricate technique during an adrenal dump......also.....the whole encounter will be over in less than 15 seconds in the street.....not much think time....

If we look at the techniques we know as a large catalogue stored in our subconscious..... in my opinion...there is no point in trying to visualise every technique or the whole catalogue at once.....(thinking about it) .... this will only serve to confuse you.......

Rather than visualising the whole catalogue of techniques....I prefer to think of nothing.....my muscle memory (or instinct) will naturally flip through my catalogue of techniques to find one that fits the situation.....I hope this make sense....this is how my mind works.....

Also, under the adrenal dump.....my subconscious will choose a technique that is "do-able"...automatically........and all of this happens in a space of a few seconds.....if we overly think about a technique....it's not always going to be the right one....
For example....If I have a pre conceived idea that I want to perform a low round kick.....but I get charged while I'm actioning it......I'm on the back foot and off balance......if I have no preconceived technique...I'll be reacting to the charge.....and I will be able to evade and counter.....I'm not hampered by my thought of executing a low round kick....

So in my opinion.....I would not think in a street encounter.....especially when my muscle memory or instinct will do the thinking for me.....and my instinct will probably choose a better technique from my catalogue than me.....

In a ring fight....sure think about it...strategise...this is a controlled environment where the other person as agreed to fighting using the same rules as you......

Humbly
The Wolf




[This message has been edited by The Wolf (edited 10-10-2004).]

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#135512 - 10/11/04 05:47 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
In a ring fight....sure think about it...strategise...this is a controlled environment where the other person as agreed to fighting using the same rules as you......[/QUOTE]

so you're saying there is a difference between street and ring in regards to "strategising" not the route taken but actually strategising, in a street encounter you are basicly saying you dont strategise. Thats bull mate, sorry to be so blunt. Any fight I am ever in I think aboiut what I will lead to, I will think abotu how to defeat whoever it is in front of me, I wont think too much about what I will be doing in that exact moment but more what i will be doing later or what i will be aiming to do.

I suppose you will never really know until you come against a fighter who strategises, the man who fights with strategy and "cleverness" will almost always beat the dumb, aimless fighter.

You must strategise, ring and street differ only because of rules are different. There are rules on the street, think about it, if you are fighting someone and his mate pops out then the rule of thumb is not to go to the ground! that is a rule, it can be broken but when it gets broken instead of you being penalised you will be sent to hospital... there are rules in every conflict be it at war or terrorism. Street and ring differe because on the street you dont have a choice who your opponent will be, well technically you do, you dont have docotors present, you have rest periods... a street fight usually doesnt last past a few minutes, thankfully. The Wolf, I really dont know what kind of guy you are but soemtimes you make very wise comments and then ridiculously ignorant ones.... strange, maybe we're all prone to a little of that.


I have alwasy said a fighter is a fighter in a ring or not, it does not matter!!! Ring or street will not remove the fact that a fighter knows how to fight, you can be totally trained in the art of Destructo but if you have not got what the other man in front of you has inside his heart you will feel the confrontation even if he hasnt a baldy about the technicality of fighting. Do not disalusion yourself in thinking that simply cos you train in dirty techniques or not for sport than then you are a badd ass... some day my friend you will meet a real baddass and he will thump you and before you even realise he has no formal training in anything it will be too late!

be humble and accept that there are fighters and there are not. Your training will not mean a thing if you ahve not got what it takes to fight in teh first place....

....now the major difference between street and ring is this, in the ring you KNOW that your opponent is a fighter in his heart and that also means that you are also that kind of person. Think about it.

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#135513 - 10/11/04 06:48 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
MAGon Offline
Veteran

Registered: 07/22/03
Posts: 1737
Loc: Miami, Fl.
Guys: I posted this in Chen's twin thread in the "Martial Arts Talk" forum. I don't want to be repetitive, but some of you whose opinions I respect seem to have gravitated to this one. So I thought that "If the mountain won't come to"...
Anyway, here's my two cents worth:

Glad you took me up on this, buddy! As you can see, it's not just me. Others agree it's a good one to discuss.
I was looking forward to you doing this and, in my quietly obssesive way, I've been thinking about since yesterday afternoon. Maybe too much of a good thing, because were I to put it all down in one post, it'd be a mile long, would bore folks to death and would kill the thread. So I think I'll refrain from being a smart@$$ and comment as others enter the discussion.
For now, let me say that in my experience thought DOES come into play in a fight. But it's not linear, logical thought (Thinking in words, e.g.: His right foot is forward and he's let it come too close to mine, so I think I'll kick/ sweep it so I can unbalance him, then... etc.). Trying to do this is too slow, therefore won't work and will get you killed.
What happens, in my case, is that IF I leave my mind blank (Mushin in the Japanese MAs) and IF there's the slightest pause in the action, images will flash in my mind of the best options/ techniques for the way the opponent is standing/ behaving, from which my mind "grabs" the one that "feels" best, and just executes it. The closest I can come to describing it is that it's as if someone was projecting slides very rapidly and using the opponent as a screen (I hope this makes sense), then a feeling of "Aha!!!" and immediately explosive action. This is probably the subconcious mind, set free by the suspension of linear thought, and allowed to roam at high speed through your past EXPERIENCES. From those, it chooses the ones that apply and presents them as the "slide show" I describe, then executes the one it feels is most appropriate. This is how MY mind works, and one of the reasons I encouraged Chen to start this thread was to see if it was just me, or it happened to us all.
Note, though, that for this to happen and work, there needs to be pause, a halt in the action or, even if action is taking place, it's either repetitive or a very familiar(Such as delivering a flurry of punches, or executing a favorite combination), which translates into mental "time" in which the mind catches up with the action. It proves impossible, at least to me, to "pay attention to the slide show" if I'm reacting to a fast moving opponent.
Now, is this thought? It would depend, I guess, on what you consider thought to be. If thinking is defined as logical thought only (Which is what Ch'an/ Zen philosophy does, as I understand it), then what I describe isn't thought at all. But if you take thought to be ANY form of mental feedback with a basis in reality, then I think this qualifies.
I hope at least some of this makes sense!!!

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#135514 - 10/11/04 07:56 PM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring....

This is my humble opinion....
Thank you for mentioning that some of my comments are "wise".
But about this term "ignorant".....I've noticed that you use this often....and it seems to be when anyone disagrees with your view.....I'm not sure if you've grasped this yet....but....people can and will have a different perception to you.....and they're entitled to it....this does not make them "ignorant"...... this is not "being blunt" as you put it....it's very disrespectful and unwarranted...
There is a touch of arrogance in your speech...maybe that's the fighter in you.....
but is there a need to be soooo rude?

It's all about perception
The Wolf

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#135515 - 10/12/04 01:08 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
Hi all

Muay Thai

Thanks for your comments....
I personally believe that there is a definite difference in "strategising" in a ring as compared to the street.
The main factor for this is TIME.... You generally have more time to "think" in the ring...there are "rounds"....and "breaks" you also have a second opinion and a second set of eyes in your corner.....
In the street, the only strategy possible...is a "pre programmed response".....there's no time to think.....my response is to restrain in the street.....this is my only plan.....
I haven't got time to "shape up" the opponent.....I haven't got time to figure out a reoccurring pattern in his fighting.....I haven't got time to "view" his movement by dancing around a ring...
[/QUOTE]

Yes but a skilled opponent wont be taken so fast or so easily. Sizing up the opponent isnt an endurance trail in mental strength. Certain things simply have to be noted. Size, speed, and footwork. These three things are easily assessed and can tell you much about the opponent. From there the opponent is engaged.

Acting simply on reflex is folly. Suppose you spar alot and you react to a front kick by blocking downwards and countering. This has become your reflex, your instinct. Now you fight a skilled opponent and he throws a front kick at you. You block and he throws another. The third time he is waiting for it and you didnt even realize that you were doing the same tired technique because you werent thinking.

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#135516 - 10/12/04 04:12 AM Re: Thinking on your feet.
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chen Zen:
Yes but it is possible to remain calm WHILE engaged with the opponent. When calm there is no fog; just action and reaction based on a decision by you to utilize what technique may be correctly applied to the situation at hand.

[/QUOTE]

Sure it is possible to remain calm, because at the moment that the fight is engaged, you're "in the water and having to swim". If you have trained to swim by actually swimming (so to speak), then your body will react as it should. It's when you've trained to swim by means other than actual swimming (such as swimming kata) that you'll go to pieces in the real event.

Once in the event of swimming, there is no time to think (which is the thing that causes the problems), there's only time to react.

It's the standing on the diving board while glaring down at the water that causes the anxiety (pre-fight experience). Dealing with this is easy also -- prepare for the event by actually DOING what it is you're there to do (training to fight, with people who are fighting you BACK -- actual competitive training, sparring and fighting).


-John




[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 10-12-2004).]

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