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#135450 - 10/09/04 12:20 PM The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello everyone. I am new to this forum and am glad to see that there is actually a specific JKD forum on this site, unlike many others. I have read many accounts of the WJM confrontation outcome, and I was wondering what the true story is? What is the most accurate information as to what went on? Thank You.

FormlessForm

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#135451 - 10/09/04 02:04 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Who really knows what happened. Both sides have spun it so much that there's no way to get the truth. They wanted to keep the fight secretive just for that reason.
http://martialarts.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.kungfu.net/brucelee.html


I doubt we'll ever know what really happened.

-John

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#135452 - 10/09/04 07:41 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ah the fabled match of the century. Maybe one of the last fights between "Master" in the classical sense of the word.

Personally I believe Bruce lost. He only completed two thirds of Wing Chun. Since he had never looked outside of Wing Chun he only knew two thirds of an incomplete system. Compared to the knowledge of a Grand Master it wasnt much to afford Bruce many weapons. Here was a man that told the world that he could beat any man on the planet. Then after he supposedly beat a man the man comes back and calls him out publicly and he declines. Bruce knew that it was too soon and that he would be outclassed. I also believe that the Wong account is accurate. At least on the demeanor of the fight. Bruce often talked of finishing the fight as quickly as possible. He also appeared to fight with much anger and was known also to be quick tempered. Bruce probably was out to take Wong's life.

However, I do believe that the fight would have gone differently say five years down the road. Had Bruces training evolved into what it did he would have beaten Wong. However had the fight with Wong not happened JKD might not ever have been created, so maybe we are in just as much debt to Wong as we are to Bruce.

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#135453 - 12/03/04 09:47 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Damn right he lost. Although neither Bruce or WJM were really injured at all after the fight. It actually ended after Bruce couldn't go on with his futile attacks any longer. Supposedly he was "unusually winded." Of course, it was after the fight that Bruce decided that Wing Chun was incomplete and he began to develope his own style. Linda Lee's bunk story about the fight came out well after Bruce's death. She spread a false story about the reason for the fight (the right to teach the quilo) and made up some crap about why Bruce decided to renounce his style. Jack Man Wong tried to defend himself in court for defamation of character but he lost since he was supposedly a "public figure."

Bruce actually never talked about this fight while he was alive. He made a vague reference to some "kung fu cat" he had fought in San Francisco. Everyone in Chinatown thought he was referring to WJM since it was well known that they had fought. Wong then challenged Bruce to a public match. Bruce Lee, remained silent to this challenge. He was probably afraid of being humiliated like he was in the first fight. After all, Wong managed to lock his head under his left arm three times.

If they had fought 5 years later the result would have been no different (the only difference might have been that Wong would've accidentally killed him). Wong grew in power and skill at just as fast a pace as Lee after their first encounter. He excelled in Ba Gua, Hsing Yi, and Tai Chi. He probably still would have won if he had used his Norhern Shaolin (he was a Bak Siu Lum grandmaster).

As far as Lee's supposedly superior physique, you might want to check out this link...
http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html

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#135454 - 12/04/04 03:47 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Dfox Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 38
Loc: place,colorado,usa
masters fighting? you make it sound like sound like some one picked a fight? who is wong jack man and was he figting to fight or to prove bruce lees theory wrong?

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#135455 - 12/05/04 10:23 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


That site is BS Bruce lee didn't train with HIGh weight on Squats because he didn't want to become to bulky it doesn't matter if he only squated 95 pounds the Speed of his kick creates more force, bruce lee could of been a HUge hulking mass of MUSCLE! but he wasn't, it doesn't mean he's not good at martial arts, It's not the strength that he used or developed through lifting weights but how he applied his SKills in fighting. You have obviously been swayed by that site to think that bruce lee, after developing JEET KUNE DO can't defeat wong jack man. The first ANYTHING wong jack man tried against bruce lee would of resulted in DEATH bruce would kick his booty!! :P

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#135456 - 12/06/04 04:57 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


So, let me get this straight MegaP, are you saying JKD is a superior fighting art to Northern Shaolin Kung Fu, Bagua Zhang, Tai Chi, and Hsing Yi? Cause if you are, you better do some research my friend. Unlike all of the above mentioned arts, I don't think I've ever seen JKD as stringently tested in any competitive type arena or real combat situations. I don't need any article or single person influencing me to know that those other arts are, on the whole, superior to JKD. Maybe when some other strictly JKD guy comes forward and shows that he's a true bad-ass who can consistently dominate martial arts competitions, I'll change my mind. For now, it's safe to say that even Benny "The Jet" Urquidez probably could've have whooped Bruce's ass.

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#135457 - 12/06/04 06:38 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


i'm not saying that the art it self is superior to those other arts, all have their good qualities, but how bruce used it it could very possible be enough to defeat him. It's not enough to be well rounded in many arts, a couch potatoe could learn bruces skills and wong jacks skills then some...it wouldn't mean he can't be beaten. and you shouldn't base your thoughts about jeet kune do being effective when some guy comes and does it, how about we get someone else other than wong jack man to demontrate the martial arts he knows..it's not the same thing. You can't really know because bruce is dead. And jeet kune do is different for everybody... nobody is going to do it like bruce...in conclusion..bruce would kick his booty hah

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#135458 - 12/06/04 09:26 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


MegaPower16V,
Welcome to the forum. It appears that you are a bruce fan. I will look forward to your future contributions. You might consider a name change though, maybe something like,

THE PUNCTUATOR
or
THE CAPITALIZER
or
THE EMPHASIZER

oldman [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

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#135459 - 12/06/04 09:32 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks, but ...i don't get the name thing..what do you mean ? with things like,emphasizer and all that "jazz" ?

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#135460 - 12/07/04 06:35 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


MegaPower16V,
BS, HIGh, HUge, MUSCLE, SKills
JEET KUNE DO, ANYTHING, DEATH. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

oldman

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#135461 - 12/08/04 07:27 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Iíd gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting.

If this quote truly belongs to Bruce Lee, I perceive WJM as the victor regardless of who got beat up due to his clearly superior attitude to the whole thing. How can someone with so much hatred and arrogance be a truly good martial artist?

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#135462 - 12/08/04 09:41 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
[QUOTE]Originally posted by 45:
"Iíd gotten into a fight in San Francisco (a reference, no doubt, to the Bay Area rather than the city) with a Kung-Fu cat, and after a brief encounter the son-of-a-bitch started to run. I chased him and, like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. Soon my fists began to swell from hitting his hard head. Right then I realized Wing Chun was not too practical and began to alter my way of fighting."

If this quote truly belongs to Bruce Lee, I perceive WJM as the victor regardless of who got beat up due to his clearly superior attitude to the whole thing. How can someone with so much hatred and arrogance be a truly good martial artist?
[/QUOTE]

Its the princible of the thing. If the story is true people were trying to MAKE bruce quit teaching martial arts. So they brought in their best fighter and Bruce accepted the challenge. Now from what I believe Bruce won, just not at the level his was use to. I think it wore him out more so than he had ever been. Thats what I believe, but neither of us can prove any of it you know.

But when you are being told to do something, and you have someone trying to kick your @$$ for no reason at all really, I mean who can judge a fighter based on personal emotions? Cmon...

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#135463 - 12/08/04 05:30 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


yeah thats stupid...just because someone is angry or hates someone doesn't mean that it negates all their martial arts abilities....come on...don't say stupid stuff like that.

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#135464 - 12/09/04 02:22 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


So let me get this straight, according to Bruce, Wing Chun makes your fists soft?! Wing Chun isn't practical because your fists will swell up if you hit somebody in the head? That either sounds like somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about or someone who's trying to hide something and make an excuse as to why he decided to renounce Wing Chun.

You really wanna know why Bruce renounced the style that he had been practicing for ten years? Because Bruce's Wing Chun proved to be ineffective against Wong's defenses. He could never get in close enough to tag him. Whenever Bruce did get in close, Jack Man Bad would side step and deliver a shocking blow to Bruce's face or torso. It soon became obvious after 20 min. that Bruce totally sucked compared to Wong and he couldn't even keep up (the fight had to stop because Bruce was winded).

After the bout, Linda Lee says that she had to comfort him on the back porch because Bruce was so down on himself. And for what?! Because he was tired after 3 min. and his fists were swelling. I'm sorry but Linda's account (and Bruce's if he meant the "kung fu cat" to be Wong) is complete bunk. She's just trying to glorify him so she can make millions of more dollars.

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#135465 - 12/09/04 03:11 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
So let me get this straight, according to Bruce, Wing Chun makes your fists soft?! Wing Chun isn't practical because your fists will swell up if you hit somebody in the head? That either sounds like somebody who doesn't know what they're talking about or someone who's trying to hide something and make an excuse as to why he decided to renounce Wing Chun. [/QUOTE]

You ever hit someone in the forehead or back of the head hard enough you would realize how easy it is for a human to break a knuckle or induce swelling!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
You really wanna know why Bruce renounced the style that he had been practicing for ten years? Because Bruce's Wing Chun proved to be ineffective against Wong's defenses.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that, (Wongs "defenses" being running around trying to evade Bruce's ruthless attacks). Caused Bruce to start thinking about what works best for him in the combat situation. He decided a lot of wing chun was useless/ineffective for him.
He was type imo to do whatever it took, you know.

If it wasn't for this confrontation, It might have prolonged Bruces rise to fame, who knows?

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#135466 - 12/10/04 07:34 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Actually, Wong didn't "run" around trying to evade Bruce's attacks. According to eye witnesses, they clinched on several occasions. Resulting in Wong managing to lock Bruce's head three times. Jack Man Wong, being the more honorable and cool headed fighter, let Bruce go every time. Only to have Bruce charge him like a mad man.

Besides using his fists, Bruce was using Wing Chun's trademark eye and neck finger gouges. If you ask me, Bruce was unstable and prone to anger far too easily. And is it any surprise? Bruce was the leader of a street gang when he was a young punk back in Hong Kong. He said he starting learning Wing Chun because he wanted to be able to handle himself when his "gang" wasn't there to back him up.

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#135467 - 12/11/04 02:15 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
Besides using his fists, Bruce was using Wing Chun's trademark eye and neck finger gouges. If you ask me, Bruce was unstable and prone to anger far too easily. And is it any surprise? Bruce was the leader of a street gang when he was a young punk back in Hong Kong. He said he starting learning Wing Chun because he wanted to be able to handle himself when his "gang" wasn't there to back him up. [/QUOTE]

I agree 100%. Thats what I like about Bruce though. He did in fact have a rather short fuse, but thats what made him human. Bruce went from trouble youth, to becoming a famous martial artist...
Breaking through the racial barrier, and revolutionizing the way people viewed the martial arts.
And to die at such an early age, love him or hate him, he accomplished a hell of a lot.

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#135468 - 12/12/04 08:27 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]As far as Lee's supposedly superior physique, you might want to check out this link... ]http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html[/QUOTE]
Faults with this article:



  • That he only squatted reps of 95lbs, if true only shows that he didn't like to strength train his legs.

  • That he was of only average cardio/running capabilities means nothing because the type of athlete he was is the opposite of a long-distance runner




I believe was physically gifted in a way different from most people ever born. Looking at all the footage, his muscles had to be some of the most explosive, snappy ones ever seen on a body. This is why he was only an average runner; a runner has a different composition of muscle (slow-twitch vs. fast-twitch) than Lee would have had. Furthermore, I think explosiveness is something apart from pure strength, and that's why he may have only squatted 95lbs, but still have damaging kicks, and the ability to spring and pounce.

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#135469 - 12/12/04 09:23 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


There's no "Gifted" he just trained harder and better than everybody else. And that site has nothing to do with anything. his Training isn't for maximum power and HUGEness in the gym, it's for Speed, he purposly stays low on the weights.and as far as being an average runner thats probably because he STopped after 3 miles and road a Bike for a few more miles and did Jump roping. Fast twitch and slow twitch don't have anything to do with it, there are different amounts in different people, but it doesn't REALLY affect you, thats just an excuse to be a lazy poop face and say "oh no...it's genetics i can't do anything about it" People are about 2% different from a MONKEY, so people to people are like .1% difference...we are practically clones...The amount of fast and slow doesn't matter, it's your training that matters.

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#135470 - 12/12/04 11:54 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MegaPower16V:
There's no "Gifted" he just trained harder and better than everybody else. And that site has nothing to do with anything. his Training isn't for maximum power and HUGEness in the gym, it's for Speed, he purposly stays low on the weights.and as far as being an average runner thats probably because he STopped after 3 miles and road a Bike for a few more miles and did Jump roping. Fast twitch and slow twitch don't have anything to do with it, there are different amounts in different people, but it doesn't REALLY affect you, thats just an excuse to be a lazy poop face and say "oh no...it's genetics i can't do anything about it" People are about 2% different from a MONKEY, so people to people are like .1% difference...we are practically clones...The amount of fast and slow doesn't matter, it's your training that matters.[/QUOTE]


some of the stuff that they said about his training might have been more of a guess, but that doesnt change the fact that the "best of martial arts" wasnt that great of a person, for god sakes man he died in the apartment of a women that he was having an affair with, and they could have done thousands of autopsies on his body and found MARIJUANA in it every time, most martial artist dont take drugs obviously because it messes up your skills and lungs if its smoking somthing, i think the "best" would have known that and shouldnt use marijuana, lol maybe it helped his speed.


oh and the 2 percent difference with monkeys isnt true its primapes, monkeys are different , and that 2 percent could make a big difference because if your saying monkeys then a baboon would only have a 2 percent difference even though baboons are about 7 times stronger then any human, nomatter how gifted or how much they trained.

[This message has been edited by Rokujimaru (edited 12-13-2004).]

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#135471 - 12/13/04 04:31 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


FOOL, i mean chimps not just MONkies in general gosh...HELLO! and he only took drugs for the last 3 years of his life because it helped him relax...but him having an affair and dying there is completley irrelivant to the level of his skills. And it was like the freakin' 30's or whatever... the dangers of drugs were not known then...

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#135472 - 12/14/04 02:42 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the ganja probably helped to calm him down if anything. It was well known that Bruce was prone to getting extremely angry at the slightest provocation. All you have to do is read some biographies and black belt articles to see what kind of major tude he had.

In a biography by Bruce Thomas it says that after one of Bruce's students got in a lucky punch during a sparring match, he savagely beat the guy to the ground. When he was moving into a house in So. Cal., Linda said that he got so frustrated with a bed that he was trying to put together that he "drove the bed through the wall." (temper temper) For some reason or another, he also tried to kill Wong Jack Man by trying to gouge his eyes out during their match.

If you ask me, most of Bruce's credibility is because of his movie stardom. If it hadn't been him it would have been someone else who would've shined a light on gung fu.

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#135473 - 12/14/04 09:08 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


what does bruces temper have to do with his credibility? that doesn't make any sense thats like saying he's only known for his skills because his eyes are green.

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#135474 - 12/17/04 03:17 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


A man's disposition is important in a real fight. Being prone to getting angry during a conflict can be just as much of a handicap as getting nervous or fearful. A good enough fighter can use that anger against you. Just like Jack Man Wong in their bout almost 40 years ago. According to eye witnesses Bruce charged Wong "like a mad bull" intent upon doing him harm. The more reserved Wong just waited until he tired himself out. Of course, Wong could have finished him off at any time but the whole thing was so effortless for him he held off on landing a finishing blow (he also may not have known how to finish it off without possibly killing Lee).

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#135475 - 12/17/04 08:41 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


oh please dont act like you were there haha

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#135476 - 12/17/04 11:12 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Stampede Offline
Lord of the Kazoo

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 967
Loc: El Dorado, AR
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MegaPower16V:
FOOL[/QUOTE]

. . . Was something said about Florida and tropical conditions?

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#135477 - 12/18/04 10:12 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Don't waste your post about someones grammar...

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#135478 - 12/23/04 03:55 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
Damn right he lost. Although neither Bruce or WJM were really injured at all after the fight. It actually ended after Bruce couldn't go on with his futile attacks any longer. Supposedly he was "unusually winded." Of course, it was after the fight that Bruce decided that Wing Chun was incomplete and he began to develope his own style. Linda Lee's bunk story about the fight came out well after Bruce's death. She spread a false story about the reason for the fight (the right to teach the quilo) and made up some crap about why Bruce decided to renounce his style. Jack Man Wong tried to defend himself in court for defamation of character but he lost since he was supposedly a "public figure."

Bruce actually never talked about this fight while he was alive. He made a vague reference to some "kung fu cat" he had fought in San Francisco. Everyone in Chinatown thought he was referring to WJM since it was well known that they had fought. Wong then challenged Bruce to a public match. Bruce Lee, remained silent to this challenge. He was probably afraid of being humiliated like he was in the first fight. After all, Wong managed to lock his head under his left arm three times.

If they had fought 5 years later the result would have been no different (the only difference might have been that Wong would've accidentally killed him). Wong grew in power and skill at just as fast a pace as Lee after their first encounter. He excelled in Ba Gua, Hsing Yi, and Tai Chi. He probably still would have won if he had used his Norhern Shaolin (he was a Bak Siu Lum grandmaster).

As far as Lee's supposedly superior physique, you might want to check out this link...
http://www.myodynamics.com/articles/bruce.html
[/QUOTE]

i tink the link is quite unfair in its reasoning.bruce lee's training purposes maybe wasnt using heavy wts in the first place.juz becos he use wts doesnt means he wants to be arnold,juz becos he cycles doesnt means he wants to be lance armstrong right?his purpose was to be an efficient fighter in ways tat he tinks would make him so...

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#135479 - 12/23/04 03:56 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by DragonFire1134:
I agree with that, (Wongs "defenses" being running around trying to evade Bruce's ruthless attacks). Caused Bruce to start thinking about what works best for him in the combat situation. He decided a lot of wing chun was useless/ineffective for him.
He was type imo to do whatever it took, you know.

If it wasn't for this confrontation, It might have prolonged Bruces rise to fame, who knows?
[/QUOTE]

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#135480 - 12/23/04 03:58 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


i tink the post abt bruce lees physical abilities isnt fair.bruce lee training purposes maybe wasnt using heavy wts in the first place.juz becos he uses wts doesnt means he wants to be arnold or juz becos he cycles doesnt means he wants to be lance armstrong rite?his aim was to be an efficient fighter in ways tat he tinks so...

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#135481 - 12/25/04 10:52 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Too bad he wasn't efficient enough to beat Wong Jack Man (or Jack Man Bad as he was known in SF's Chinatown). Or wait, maybe that was a good thing since that fight probably had a significant effect on his over-all style. After all, he start using higher kicks after that bout which was a trademark of Wong's Northern Shaolin gung fu. Maybe he learned something.

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#135482 - 12/26/04 10:28 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
Too bad he wasn't efficient enough to beat Wong Jack Man (or Jack Man Bad as he was known in SF's Chinatown). [/QUOTE]

You say that as though you were an eyewitness! But I'm not here to discuss that, lets move on to something else...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
After all, he start using higher kicks after that bout which was a trademark of Wong's Northern Shaolin gung fu. Maybe he learned something. [/QUOTE]

He trained high kicks long before the Wong confrontation. In his gung fu manual, it is written;

"In training kick high, in fighting kick low, kick hard"

Anyway it was something along that order. When Bruce had Jhoon show him some of TKD's high kicks, it wasn't to add to his self defense arsenal, but mainly to add show in his movies.

Bruce knew high kicks really had no place in real fighting, but he knew what an audience liked to see...

And simplicity just isn't one of them.

On a side note, does anyone know Wong's age at the time of this fight? I'm just curious.

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#135483 - 12/26/04 06:52 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Both Wong and Bruce were 24 years old. Bruce was about 140 lbs. (at 5'7") and Wong (at 5'10") was a lighter 135 lbs. Of course, Wong Sifu looks nothing like the way he was portrayed in Ron Cowen's "Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story." In that movie he looks more like some sort of WWE wrestler.

Since the conflict happened back in 1964, when Bruce was still only using his Wing Chun, It's been said that Bruce didn't employ any high kicks at all (since Wing Chun doesn't use any). Eye witnesses said that Bruce was kicking for the groin while Wong was blocking his kicks with his legs. Maybe Bruce wouldn't have been as likely to use higher kicks in a real fight but they were and are an integral part of JKD training.



[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-26-2004).]

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#135484 - 12/27/04 03:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


no they aren't

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#135485 - 12/27/04 04:30 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Who really cares what happened all those years ago anyway, lol?!

It's over and done with. People should stop worshiping Lee as if he were some kind of DEMIGOD!

Just imagine if Lee had actually fought someone with a legitimate fight record instead of some unknown guy who "zoomed in from OBLIVION" (having since zoomed right back OUT to Oblivion)?! He'd have been KTFO'd for Chrissakes!

Lets all give it a rest, eh?


-John

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#135486 - 12/27/04 04:07 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I guess I need some JKD edu-bacation. I was under the impression that medium to high kicks had their place among the various JKD techniques. In Bruce's "Advanced Fighting Techniques" and other books, he shows how to use high kicks after a feint or at the moment your opponent's attacking.

And ya, I agree with Kogas, where's the pro fighting record? Where are the trophies? Sure, allot of prize fighters trained with him, but they were just trying to learn new techniques. I'm only saying all of this because Bruce had a Mt. Rushmore sized ego and actually said "I can whip any man in the world." It also greatly disturbs me that people would actually think that this former movie star was the "best" martial artist ever.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-27-2004).]

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#135487 - 12/30/04 11:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


bruce did win he talks about the account in one of his books i have i will read it out later. he was the best

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#135488 - 12/30/04 01:14 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


please heres a interivew

PB: You once mentioned Joe Lewis in regard to a conversation you had with Dan Inosanto in which Danny claimed that during a workout session with Bruce Lee that Lewis "could not do anything." Can you expound on this?
JD: It is hard to recall the exact conversations that took place many years ago. But this was the gist of the talk. Danny had seen Bruce Spar with Joe and Chuck Norris and said he would neutralize everything they tried. His ability to close, trap and shut down any attack was amazing. I did not doubt this since I had had personal experience with his skills. Bruce was a street fighter, and they were tournament players. There is a definite difference between the two. I have always been more than happy to explain the differences to those who think that winning trophies and smashing heads is the same thing.

PB: In another interview, you once said Lee "could have beaten anyone regardless of size and strength." With martial artists reaching new levels in training, do you think Lee would have the same superiority over today's fighters as he did back when you knew him?
JD: Yes. The reason is what he did and how he did it. Todayís fighter is bigger and stronger, yet really does much of the same thing when fighting. It is difficult to explain in writing, but easy when doing it in person. A large part of the problem in communicating Bruceís skills is that most people do not understand what a street fight is. It is not a tournament, not UFC or K1 or the Sabaki challenge. It is Neanderthal. It is no quarter and the only goal is to really hurt or kill the opponent. It is stupid and mindless, yet happens everyday. Bruce had two levels of action: two seconds or less or play. Meaning the fight was over in a blink or he played cat and mouse because he had no respect for the personís skills. I do not care how strong you are, what rank you are, what style you are, if you cannot see it coming you cannot stop it. If, at the other end of that invisible movement was the floating punch, then it was over before it began.

PB: It seems every era of Lee's students seem to think he was at a point of evolution over the last. But for someone like myself, who has read countless interviews over the years, it seems Bruce already had a lot his advanced methods while in Seattle. Your thoughts?
JD: Bruce evolved all through his short life. However, I believe, in those first few years, Bruce discovered his personal answers to be the best fighter. Once discovered, he filed them away and began his quest to create the best martial arts system. His belief that a fight should not take over two seconds was basic to his discoveries. The longer the fight, the more chance for luck to come into play. Bruce wanted to control the outcome, not hope that he was going to be lucky. One of the most important concepts that Bruce shared with me was that you could become a master of a few techniques, but never a lot. He felt that if you could define the elements of a fight and design techniques to directly overwhelm them, then you were developing the ultimate system. If the total list of techniques did not exceed ten, then becoming a master of them was very realistic. I have followed this thought, both in my teaching (the tool pouch mentality) and in my own training. I am a good teacher and know my material well, but my students often become better than me in many elements of Wing Chun Do. But, for my own purposes, I know less than 10 techniques that I have total confidence will wipe out anyone I should have to fight. Anyone. Not bragging, just confident. In my demonstrations I try and share this concept so people will have some insight as to why Bruce was so effective in his survival skills.

PB: Jesse Glover's brother, Mike Lee, has been rumored to be one of Lee's most gifted students. Did you know Mike and would you agree with the assessment regarding his abilities?
JD: Mike was very good. I remember him as being very young and into running when I trained with Bruce. I know his brother Jesse worked with him a lot. I am unaware of just how much Bruce worked with Mike, so I cannot really make an assessment of him.
PB: There has been a lingering rumor that you and Bruce had a falling out in your friendship at one time. Is this true and if so please explain the circumstances and if you two remained friends after he left for Oakland.
JD: It was not a rumor. It was true. It was my fault. After I broke away from regular classes I would go down and visit Bruce in his underground club on King Street. After one of his classes I was talking to some of the students and they asked why I had stopped training. I mentioned that I felt Bruce was leaving out important pieces of what made things work. Bruce heard about my comments and when I visited again confronted me, very uptight, and asked why I said what I did. I told him and he said I had no right to make comments to his class. I agreed and apologized. He was slapping some gloves into his other palm and suggested I was challenging him. He was very upset and seemed to be pushing for a fight. I knew I was on very dangerous ground. To fight Bruce when he was calm was insanity, but to do it when he was mad was to invite sudden death. The only amusing memory of the event was that in that period of my life I carried a gun. I had it in my coat pocket and my finger was on the trigger. I calmly thought to myself that if he leaped at me I was going to blow a hole in him. As it was I apologized again, turned and walked out. That was the last time I spoke to Bruce. I have to be honest. Jesse was his friend. Taky was his friend. I was a training part a dummy. I knew Bruce for a few years, went to school with him, ate with him, went to the movies with him and hung out with him and the others. Our common interest was fighting. My personal evaluation of him will stay personal. But, as a fighter, he was the best.

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#135489 - 12/30/04 04:51 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


Just because JD thinks he was "the best" doesn't mean it is so. Besides the challenges by amateur street punks on the movie set and hand picked (by Bruce) Karate guys at that tournament in Long Beach, I will ask once again, which truely great martial artists did Bruce fight? Some rumor from JD (who's character is questionable if he had to carry around a gun all the time and he thought of shooting Bruce) doesn't cut it. Has anyone ever asked Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis if they felt they could beat him? As far as recorded matches, Bruce didn't really fight any of the more premier Asian kung fu or karate fighters during his time except Wong Jack Man who was a grandmaster and a child prodigy before he was comissioned to open The Jing Mo Athletic Associaion in San Francisco. Speaking of Bruce's way of continueing a fight because he didn't have any respect for his opponents skills, that's probably what Wong was doing during their 20 minute bout back in '64. Apparently Wong got Bruce's head locked under his left arm three times before letting him go every time. Only to have Bruce charge at him even more enraged. The respected martial artists who were there (Clarence Lee, William Chen, and others) said with certainty that Wong was the better fighter. Despite what people think about that fight now (due to Linda Caldwell's bunk version), Bruce never talked about it while he was alive. Like I said before, he mentioned some "kung fu cat" who he had beaten but he never mentioned Wong's name. If he really did beat Wong then why didn't he answer his challenge? For more on this read this link...

http://kungfu.net/brucelee.html

And there's no difference between a "street fighter" and a skilled martial artist. What, I couldn't use my Bak Siu Lum to kick somebody's ass on the street as well as in the kwoon. By the way, that link will take you to EBM Kung Fu Academy's website. I've trained there and I can tell you that Brent Hamby, Dan Carr, and Dave Tircuit are some tough hombres. All three were trained by Wong Jack Man himself. This fact not only proves that Linda Lee's reason for Bruce and Wong's fight (the right to teach the quilo) is total BS, but that Wong has produced great martial artists and winning competitors (Brent Hamby is the 1999 USAWKF National Champion and he has produced more than one national champ himself). And JKD has produced how many champions? NADA! And I'm sorry the differences between sport and real fighting are negligible. If you're a good fighter it doesn't matter if you're in the ring or on the street you still have to put up or shut up as they say. If you can't follow the rules in the ring and you just have to kill somebody in order to beat them, it shows that you just don't have any control.

And look, I'm not trying to say that Bruce wasn't a good fighter in his own right. I'm just trying to de-bunk this totally idiotic notion that he was "the best." There is just absolutely no proof of that. People tend to believe that because Bruce was famous for bragging about how good he was. Because he died before anyone could beat him publicly everyone thinks that this stupid claim is true. Isn't it strange that he would make such claims and not try and publicly proove it. Anyone who comes out publicly and says they can beat anyone in the world is not a master and is definitely beatable. Just look at all of the fighters who have (Ali, Tyson, etc...).



[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-30-2004).]

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#135490 - 12/31/04 12:09 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Dfox Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 38
Loc: place,colorado,usa
GOD!!!! you should better then this why would you even start saying something like this and continue it? and to assume that linda lee would lie about something like that.... maybe you should take a time machine ask bruce lee what he meant and meet linda before you say something like that.. and why would you care if bruce lee or any one that believed bruce lee thought he was the best why do you feel like you have to change peoples minds?
even so bruce lee said i can probably beat any body in the world he said probably can
he did not say he IS THE BEST he said PROBABLY CAN plus I would not doubt this man
because he is so determined enough to study
work outs martial arts and health the in time he probably could beat any one
and to go as far as saying that people are spreading lies bla bla bla that is so worse

how many people here know bruce lee?

[This message has been edited by Dfox (edited 12-31-2004).]

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#135491 - 12/31/04 12:36 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


scare? not bruce. instarted, his blood pressure began t rise." if you wanna fight,lets get with it"
wong j. mans bluff didn't work startled he tried to buy time by setting a day for the match and tried to outline the rules for it. but bruce wouldn't go for such nonsence. " since youre the one who's challenging me, then i'll make the rules. everything goes and the match is right now." jimmy kept the others from interfering as both men faced each other. bruce lee stood in his wing chun stance as his opponent got into a horse stance. confident, bruce quickly became the aggressor, pressing his opponent who started to back off. as bruce kept putting on pressure, wong began to retreat faster and faster. finally, he turned and ran with bruce right on his heels.
"i chased him and,like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. soon my fists began to swell from his hard head," he grinned.
"finally, i did something i'd never done before. i just put my arm around his neck and knocked him on his ass. i kept whacking him (on the floor) until he gave up"
jimmy told me later that the chinese community left them alone after that one incident. " you know that guy bruce beat up, he's an ass. after the fight, he went to the chinese newspaper in san francisco and told them that he'd beaten up bruce" jimmy explaned shaking his head.

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#135492 - 01/02/05 07:05 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


First thing straight im not gonna say Bruce Lee was the best, that's something we cannot prove. But Bruce was certainly one of the better fighters. The Movies make him look like superhuman with fights for over 10 min. In fact Bruce never fought for longer then 2-4 min. He always tried to finish a fight as quick as he can, he was a very fast (for example watch the last fight in big boss you'll see a scene where it seems like he kicks the man 2 times but infact if you'll slow it down you'll see that Bruce Lee kicks him 3 times). Bruce Lee was a man who search for his weakness and work them out. And i think the confrontation with mr. Jack Man really worked out for him. If he had Won or lost. He exploited his weakness making him wonder why he had lost or why the fight took so long. Learning from other martial artist, that's something a martial artist should do, learning what is effective even if it's an different style. You cant say karate is bad and Wushu is good, it's the person who use it (for example look on Kazaa for Kyoshinkai vs Wing Chun, i even think it's not wing chun but it says so, in this movie Kung Fu get there ass smacked by Kyoshinkai because they could't come nearby the Kyoshinkai dude's who uses kicks to hold them off a distance).

I think Bruce was inexperiencied in the fight against mr. Jack Man. Maybe he'd won i guess then it was luck. When Bruce invented JKD he may stood a better chance. JKD isn't superior JKD it is effective, for example a shaolin monk uses monkey style and makes a beatiful kick, wich took much energy from him instead he could just kick the opponent resulting in equal damage. It's the shaolin training that makes him good not his style, I think shaolin wushu is too artistic, it may look good but it isn't effective.

As for mr. Jack Man i think he's a formidabl e fighter and i would not for any chance stand before him in a ring (right now). He's a great person and an great person makes a great fighter.

As for JKD it's F*cked up right now, there teaching you the JKD style and it's not what Bruce wanted. I refer my syle as my own style, i'vepractise a lot of styles.I just picked up few tricks what worked for me and train in another style, i think that's what bruce lee wanted with JKD, after all he doesn't want you all to become clones of him if you practise JKD.

As for Shaolin Kung Fu, i don't think it's bad or something i got my ass kicked, but it's very close ranged. When you'll play your cards right kung fu can be very effective as long as you dont use tricks that ain't neccesary. Like a scene from Indianna Jones where a martial artist show a lot of tricks, and indianna just pick up his gun and shoot him down, instead that guy just had to go straight at indianna..

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#135493 - 01/08/05 10:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is no proof that he wasn't the best fighter, a lot of the stuff you say has no bearing on wether or not he is, it's just your ridiculous opinions. and jeet kune do not bearing any champions is completley irrelivant to wether or not bruce was a great fighter. so ANYWAY Bruce didn't just go around kicking famous peoples butts. That doesn't mean he wasn't great. and umm there is a difference, skilled fighters know what they are doing and street people just run at you and try to pound you to death. fool don't say dumb stuff like that. any him coming out publicly and saying he can beat anybody doesn't have ANYTHING to do with being a great fighter...what are you ON!? just no...hah

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#135494 - 01/09/05 03:35 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've been in the arts for 35 years. i've taught/trained both streetfighters and ring fighters. Anyone that says there is no difference between the two is full of sh*t.
The reason? Simple, ring fighters are bound by not only physical parameters, they are bound by rules and regs. Have any of you ever seen a Muay Thai fighter disqualified from an 'Above the Belt' fight, due to leg kicks, or the use of knees and elbows due to his instinctive condition for the ring? It happens all the time!
The streets are much much different. There are no refs to keep you safe, and no judges to say who wins if there was no knockout.
Let's not get into the realm of the absurd.

Regarding Lee...
I agree far too many people have elevated him to Demi-God stature, which is a shame because it takes away from his true mental/physical abilities.
I have spent the last thirty five years trying to seperate fact from fiction.
There WAS a code in Chinatown Oakland for Chinese only to teach Chinese. It is still adhered to today by many instructors there even though we have reached the twenty first century. The FACT that Lee continued to teach anyone he chose, is proof of his victory. Now, while Lee himself rarely mentioned Wong's name, quite a few others DID. These stories were published by every martial arts mag of the day. If Wong in fact DID win, why didn't he sue these numerous publications for slander? After all, a martial artists reputation is his bread and butter! Not one of these mags has ever been sued by Wong regarding this story. Even Mito Uyeharra owner/publisher of blackbelt magazine couldn't understand why Wong didn't sue if he had in fact, beaten Lee. These stories are still published to this day. The reason is simple...Lee won. Albeit, not a quick victory, as the result of this altercation, caused him to take a good, hard look at not only his combat skills, but his physical conditioning as well. Thus, the birth of JKD.
There are some who claim he had super human strength (ridiculus) or he was capable of hitting a man twenty times a second (also ridiculus).
I will say that he became exceptionally strong. Especially for a man his size. James Coburn had his forearm grabbed by Lee, and said it felt like his arm was in a vice.
In a feature article written by one of the world's foremost fitness publications 'MUSCLE & FITNESS', the author went into his research on Lee a skeptic, only to emerge a full blown fan. It goes without saying, everything printed had to be substantiated, or they would be laughed out of the business. According to this article, Lee was able to hold a 125 pound barbell straight out at shoulder height for several seconds without a quiver. I have never seen anybody be able to do this in thirty five years, and I've trained some very strong individuals. Lee was also capable of punching at a speed of 5/100s of a second.
His kicking speed was 8/100s of a second.
He was able to close a distance of eight feet in just under 1/2 second.
Lee also owned a 300 pound heavy bag he could slap against the ceiling with a sidekick, with no prior movement. Bob Wall said everyone else could barely get it to swing. Norris witnessed Lee thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of (pre-aluminum) Coca-Cola. Lee hit with such impact, he collapsed a set of boxing headgear with steel rods welded to it for reinforcement, previously tested by hitting it with a sledgehammer to check the welds. This magazine also features an in depth look at his 'TRUE' training regimen, much of it in his own handwriting.
This article is a must read for all Lee fans. I am very fortunate to own a copy myself.
To sum up: Let's NOT put Lee on a god like pedestal, however, let's give credit where it is due!


[This message has been edited by NEBULA_ONE (edited 01-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by NEBULA_ONE (edited 01-09-2005).]

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#135495 - 01/10/05 07:16 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NEBULA_ONE:
I've been in the arts for 35 years. i've taught/trained both streetfighters and ring fighters. Anyone that says there is no difference between the two is full of sh*t.[/QUOTE]
OK, did I say "street fighters and ring fighters?" No, I said skilled fighters. There's no need to split hairs and say you're either a skilled ring fighter or a skilled street fighter and you can't be both. Most MAists I know train for so-called street fighting (potentially lethal hand to hand) and competition fighting. Even Bruce!! He fought in amateur competitions in Hong Kong. He didn't use Wing Chun eye and neck gouges in the ring did he? I'm sorry, but if you can win on the street and you suc in the ring (or visa-versa) I think that's pretty f*cking pathetic and it means that you're not really an all-around skilled fighter. A truely great fighter can do both.
[QUOTE]I have spent the last thirty five years trying to seperate fact from fiction.
There WAS a code in Chinatown Oakland for Chinese only to teach Chinese. It is still adhered to today by many instructors there even though we have reached the twenty first century.
[/QUOTE]
Ya, you're right, but Wong Jack Man never adhered to that rule. If he did, he wouldn't have trained some of the best non-asian martial artists out there. Including Peter Ralston (who was the first white guy to win an inter-national competition in China) and Brent Hamby (the 1999 USAWKF National Champion). And no, he didn't train them just to "save face." Along with Brandon Lai, Wong was one of the first Asian teachers to teach with open doors in the SF Chinese community. The reasons for the fight were completely different. Mainly it was because Lee was talking smack about allot of MA teachers and he challenged a friend of Wong's. Later, Linda Lee came out with her version of the events in her biography which made Bruce seem like a total hero who challenged racial stereo-types. I'll admit that he did gain some ground for Asians in America in a major way, but not when it came to the Wong Jack Man conflict. That whole part of her biography was contrived in order to make it seem like he was even more righteous and cool than he was. Linda Lee is, after all, still making butt loads of cash off his name.
[QUOTE]Now, while Lee himself rarely mentioned Wong's name, quite a few others DID. These stories were published by every martial arts mag of the day. If Wong in fact DID win, why didn't he sue these numerous publications for slander? After all, a martial artists reputation is his bread and butter! Not one of these mags has ever been sued by Wong regarding this story. Even Mito Uyeharra owner/publisher of blackbelt magazine couldn't understand why Wong didn't sue if he had in fact, beaten Lee.[/QUOTE]
Uyeharra and other publishers were just sour that Wong basically shunned the public eye and refused to do interviews after a point. For those in the know his reputation still holds water. In reference to law suits, Wong did try to sue Linda and the whole Bruce Lee establishment back in the early eighties after she tried to portray him as a villian in her biography and after they were printing comics in Mexico and elsewhere with caricatures of Wong with a cue getting his ass kicked by Lee. He lost because, just like in the Carol Bernett court case around the same time, Wong was considered a "public figure." One last thing, despite all of your "research" you failed to mention that, after it seemed as though Lee was referring to Wong in an interview, Wong went to The Chinese Pacific Weekly with his version of the fight and he straight up challenged Lee to a public rematch. Why did Lee NOT respond to this challenge? Because HE LOST! And he knew he'd get schooled again. Oh, and anything Jimmy Lee said can't be trusted. Supposedly he stepped in and stopped Wong's friends from interfereing. First of all, these were all some experienced and tough motherf*ckers. Just one of those guys could have beaten Jimmy Lee with his pinky.
I'm sorry, but this thread is getting old for me. It seems like I can keep busting out with all kinds of facts and there's always going to be somebody to disagree with me. The Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too damn strong. The main reason I came out like this is because I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived. I've also trained with some of his former students and proteges and I've gotten the inside scoop from people close to Wong and others who were actually there. Making Wong Jack Man out to be a villian is insulting to my school and my lineage. There's been allot of bullsh*t spread around about his fight with Bruce and to be honest, it pisses me off!! Anyway, to hell with this thread, I've got no further comment.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-13-2005).]

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#135496 - 01/10/05 11:44 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


'OK, did I say "street fighters and ring fighters?" No, I said skilled fighters. There's no need to split hairs and say you're either a skilled ring fighter or a skilled street fighter and you can't be both.'

I never said you can't be both. I merely said that there was a distinct difference between the two. I believe the majority of martial artists, if they get any sparring time at all, is in the classroom with their fellow students.
Two things happen:
1. They get conditioned to fighting people within the same style, and are conditioned BY their opponents because they get to know a fighters individual style, their quirks and how to read them.
2. If the particular art they are learning has few/no street effective techniques (eye strike, throat strike, leg inversions, kill zones etc.) they wont be prepared for the types of fighters that DO this type of training/fighting.
In the time I've been in the arts, and witnessing what people are learning in the 'chain' schools, the lack of street preparation seems abundant here. It also works the other way around too. Adhereing to physical parameters, and rules for striking when you are not used to it, can be extremely frustrating as well.

'Most MAists I know train for so-called street fighting (potentially lethal hand to hand) and competition fighting. Even Bruce!! He fought in amateur competitions in Hong Kong. He didn't use Wing Chun eye and neck gouges in the ring did he?'

No he didn't.
However, this was BEFORE he came to America at the end of the fifties. After he arrived here, quite alot of his ideas had changed and evolved. That's what one is SUPPOSED to do! And I absolutely agree with you...A good fighter can do both!

'The reasons for the fight were completely different. Mainly it was because Lee was talking smack about allot of MA teachers and he challenged a friend of Wong's. Later, Linda Lee came out with her version of the events in her biography which made Bruce seem like a total hero who challenged racial stereo-types.'

I really don't doubt that Lee WAS talking smack about certain individuals. He is highly regarded by some for being that brazen. He spoke his mind, and didn't care who he upset. Because he completely believed in what he was saying. I'll admit, he could have been much more tactful...Hell, he could have shown some tact!
If things happened as you say, then I would be pissed off too! The right, and logical thing for Wong to have done was, sue the hell out of these publications and the purveyors of these slanderous remarks. If this one conflict's TRUE details had been brought out in court, and Wong won the case, the Lee books and mags would be telling quite a different story these days!
He should not have waited twenty years to do something about it.

'Uyeharra and other publishers were just sour that Wong basically shunned the public eye and refused to do interviews after a point.'

I can't really believe that. When one hides from the truth, one gets bitten! And that's what happened to Wong. If he really did win, he should have fought it tooth and nail right from the get go! As a result of his NOT doing so, he will forever be painted as a villain and a coward.
Equally important is that these publications had so many articles to feature, on so many martial artists, the only one that BECAME a problem was Lee himself. In 1999, the martial arts community sent cease and desist letters to Blackbelt, and every other publication that constantly featured Lee on their cover, and told them if they don't start featuring other MA's on the cover they were going to boycott the magazines. The publishers had a big problem: With Lee on the cover, they sold ten times as many magazines and kept their profit margins way up. On the other hand, if they don't quit, they were going to lose some of the martial arts greatest practitioners.
They chose the latter.

' after it seemed as though Lee was referring to Wong in an interview, Wong went to The Chinese Pacific Weekly with his version of the fight and he straight up challenged Lee to a public rematch. Why did Lee NOT respond to this challenge? Because HE LOST! And he knew he'd get schooled again. '

I've never read or heard anything about this in 35 years! If you can offer up some absolute proof, so be it. One cannot deny absolute fact!

' Oh, and anything Jimmy Lee said can't be trusted. Supposedly he stepped in and stopped Wong's friends from interfereing. First of all, these were all some experienced and tough motherf*ckers. Just one of those guys could have beaten Jimmy Lee with his pinky.'

Well, Jimmy was there, you and I weren't.
One can say that Jimmy's word can't be trusted, but one can also say not to take the word of Wong also. Stalemate!!

'The Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too damn strong.'

I agree with you here too.
I guess Wong sued to little/too late.
And it's only going to grow stronger!

'I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived.'

That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

The best of luck to you on your martial quest!

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#135497 - 01/13/05 09:45 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NEBULA_ONE:

'I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived.'

[/QUOTE]

Your bias for Wong Jack Man seem to rival those who are Bruce Lee fans. That would not make your comments any truer than theirs since you personally were not there when the fight took place. Also, I can tell you with certainty that those comments favoring Bruce are no more absurd than your comment about Wong Jack Man being more powerful than Bruce since you never knew Bruce Lee personally.
The fact that Bruce was able to repeatedly punch Wong Jack Man in the head from behind does not say a whole lot as to the evasive defense of Wong other than the fight wasn't going quite the way he wanted too.
Bruce in his admittance is actually giving credit to Wong in the fact that he said he had to change his style of fighting (Wing Chun).
The assertion that Bruce has never really fought any real (tournament) fighters of record and what the outcome would be is a subject of debate that will go on for years. However, has there ever been a so called real tournament fighter of record that have publicly came out and said they beat Bruce Lee, that being Joe Lewis...Chuck Norris or anyone else, in a sparring session or one who ever challenged Bruce to a fight while he was alive?? I haven't heard of any, and if not...why not? A lot can happen and change in 9 years. Bruce Lee at the height of his fame was one to be feared.

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#135498 - 01/13/05 11:46 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ive let this thread go on for some time to no new resolution. If anyone who was an eye witness would like to reply, Or Wong Jack Man himself, thn by all means do so.

However, since none of the rest of us here were there, how much does our opinions mean? Normally Id say speculate all you want but every Bruce Lee thread outthere turns into a "No He didnt" Yeas He did" thread. Its boring and actually quite aggravating. So unless anyone here has any real concrete facts on the subject then I will be forced to end this thread. you have a few days.

Chen Zen

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#135499 - 01/14/05 01:15 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


It seems like everyone here is pretty pissed off about who is the "greatest" because Ali is (hope someone laughed). but compare the facts, what kind of fight is JKD effective in and what kind of fight is Wing Chun effective in and then if two masters went at each other, what will be the outcome? This is not a complicated question so don't make it.

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#135500 - 01/15/05 03:39 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I know I said that I had no further comment but I just had to say a few more things.
Nebula_One:
You said that you did all of this research, but you somehow missed the one Black Belt article specifically on the fight which has been posted on the web for quite some time. Here it is again. http://kungfu.net/brucelee.html
Ya, maybe I wasn't there, but from what I've gathered from people in Wong's inner circle and based on my own exhaustive research, that article lays it out pretty close to the actual events.
Just the fact that Wong teaches anybody regardless of race (I myself am white) should indicate that there's something wrong with Linda Lee's official story on the matter. Not to mention the fact that he's taught some of the best non-asian practitioners out there!!
Also, Chen Zen, you want facts. Why would Ming Lum, a big martial arts promoter at the time, who knew both Bruce and Wong, say that the only wound he saw on Wong's face the next day was a slight scratch above his eye. If, like Linda Lee says, Lee had actually "pounded" Wong into submission on the floor, there would have definitely been more wounds. I submit that fact alone and the fact that the article in the Chinese Pacific Weekly (a San Francisco publication in Chinese) was real and Bruce never even made an attempt to reply to Wong's challenge. Before Bruce became famous, many people in the Chinese community knew the two had fought and most of them assumed, by Lee's inaction, that he had been beaten by the venerable Northern Shaolin Grandmaster. These are FACTS that cannot be disputed.
I would also like to pose the question, why was Bruce, according to Linda Lee in her biography, so bummed out after the fight with Wong? In her book she says that she had to comfort Lee on the back porch because he seemed to be really down on himself. Now come on, if he really had pulled off a swift 3 minute victory against one of the premier Grandmasters in the world, why would he be acting this way? For more about Wong and his lineage (which is that of the mighty Kuo Yu Chang) check out... www.jingmo.org
Once again, Lee was never specific about ever having fought Wong during his lifetime. It baffles me that people would trust his wife (who doesn't know sh*t about martial arts really) on these events. After all, after Lee's death she had all kinds of legal problems securing all of the rights to Lee's fortune. Is it that hard to believe that she would mix in some "bullsh*t with the ice cream" when trying to sell her story on Lee. Bruce wasn't even faithful to her.
Anyway, I guess I'm ready for another round if anyone wants to continue to dispute any of this. It's just that, allot of what I just said was already stated earlier on in the thread. I seem to find myself "pissing against the tide." Like I said earlier the Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too strong. Did it ever occur to anyone that the best masters in the world probably aren't on magazine covers or in movies but "behind the scenes" so to speak. The Chinese admonish the seeker to "beware the tiger in the tall grass and the dragon hidden from view."

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-15-2005).]

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#135501 - 01/15/05 11:26 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Bandit,

You make a strong arguement, but towards the wrong person. If you read my original post I said I believe Wong won and gave my reasons.

As for Lee's marital status and his faithfulness to his wife have nothing to do with the arguement. They dont make him less of a fighter do they?

As for Linda Lee's account of consoling Bruce dont mean much either. Bruce would have been bummed win or lose for a few reasons.
The first reason being that, even had he won like the Lee society professes he did, then it still took a lot out of him and required more energy than he was used to expending. This would make him second guess his training all together.
The second reason is easy. Lets say you defeated a world renouned Grand Master. Not only that but,(according to Lee) You beat him with some ease. What does this leave yyou left to look forward to? If you could beat the best fighters in the world with no problem then there would be not be as much reason to continue your training would there?

I imagine that they were probably fairly equally matched in speed and technique. However, Wing Chun left Bruce with little to work with footwork wise. Also his trapping would be useless against a fighter with as much Skill as Wong. He would be forced to use the Bil Gee(Finger thrusts) and the chain punching. haveing so few weapons against a Master doesnt leave much to work with. I would Love to speak with Master Wong, not just to hear his account but also to here his ideas on street combat in general.

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#135502 - 01/16/05 12:54 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I really wasn't trying to argue with you in particular. You said that unless anyone has any concrete fact then you would have to end the thread. I was just frustrated because I feel like I've been producing facts since the thread got started.
Out of all of Wong's students, I'm pretty much much the only one I know of who's making a big stink about all of this stuff on Kung Fu forums. It just angers me when I hear him painted out as a villian cause he's actually a really honorable guy. As for discussing the Bruce Lee fight with him, there's not one current student that I know of (except the really old school guys) who dares discuss it with him. It's not that he has anything to hide. It's just that he doesn't want to be jugded by that fight alone and I think maybe he's still a little perturbed by the bad press it's given him.

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#135503 - 01/16/05 03:57 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would also just like to add that, even though Linda Lee's account of the way things transpired was a grievous insult to Wong and his lineage, I think he has been well on his way towards making his peace with the whole thing. Honor, respect, and integrity are integral to his over-all make-up as a martial artist. Since, unlike Bruce, he's never been interested in becoming a famous movie star or an international sensation, he never chose to discuss the match publicly. Lee and Wong had agreed not to discuss the conflict. It was only when it seemed like Lee made public mention of it and when Linda Lee spread her version that he chose to say something on the matter. Even then, he remained very low-key. He knows that, no matter how loudly he proclaims to be the victor, there will always be nay sayers since Bruce's fame was so far-reaching. It's really not his aim to become an inter-national spectacle because of this one battle. To him it's just not worth discussing (I've never wanted to run the risk of pissing him off by doing so either).
As far as discussing matters of self defense and the like, one would have to be lucky enough to make it into his class in San Francisco. He mainly only teaches advanced and experienced martial artists these days. There are only two of us, who aren't as advanced in Chinese kung fu and who have managed to start learning his Bak Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin) curriculum. As for everyone else in his rather small class, he mainly teaches Sun style Hsing Yi and Yang style Tai Chi Chuan.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-16-2005).]

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#135504 - 01/16/05 07:38 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
THESE threads represent all that is wrong with JKD. There are just WAY too many Bruce Lee "groupies" who buy into the myth and legend without looking at the facts.

This is all because he made a few movies and died young. Anyone that is famous and dies at a young age always takes on legendary status and Lee is no exception.

Lee was a brilliant, creative man. He fought NO ONE of any demonstrable skill level. During the two plus yeas that Lewis said he trained with Lee, they never even sparred.

Lee fought no one. They only thing he ever did were demonstrations. So, how is it that people can claim he was "the best"?

Lets just give it a rest folks, shall we? Perhaps this thread should be closed? JKD is about you and I - not Lee anway. Hows about talking about training or something?


-John

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#135505 - 01/16/05 09:20 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Bandit,

I know some of the contributors have produced facts here. I simply meant to say that for the most part people were simply biased one way or the other without any reason. I may make a trip out west for a few weeks in a couple of months. Id love to meet him if at all possible.

John, my sentiments exactly. Thats why I had mentioned closing the thread. I just like to make sure a dead horse has been beaten before it gets buried.

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#135506 - 01/17/05 02:17 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I would like to offer a final response to the Wong fight, as well as Lee myths and groupies:
If Wong had won the fight, or it was a draw, he should have sued the numerous publications/persons that had actually used his name, for slander and malice. If he had done so, the Lee biography books/mags might be telling quite a different story (which I had previously mentioned). I don't know the absolute truth, as I wasn't there. We need to examine Lee's life, battles and skill with a courtroom mentality. The general rule? If it doesn't seem logical, it probably isn't. Preponderance of evidence is also a key factor.
With that being said, there is debate as to whether Norris, Lewis, and Stone were actually Lee's students. They have all admitted to being students of his at one time or another. So, why would they take lessons from someone they could pound the snot out of? I know in boxing circles this is the norm, but at that time Lee was blowing everyone's mind, even the legendary Ed Parker. This, a direct result of his skill, not words. linda tells of a sparring match between Lee and Norris in his hotel room after the Internationals, only to find Norris red faced from frustration and embarrasement. This story again, has been printed hundreds of times in numerous publications (I have a few) and Norris never once disputed it. Lewis has been distancing himself from Lee and the JKD name. That is his right. I also know he is quite bitter about his decision not to co-star in Way of the Dragon, as he himself has stated so on occasion. He is still kicking himself for that one so to speak (who wouldn't?), as it is Norris forever immortalised on celluloid with Lee and not him. It would be insane to think Lee got to where he was, purely on hype and word of mouth, as one can prove absolute superiority in combat. It would also be extremely ludicrous for him to spout "To tell you the truth...I can beat any man in the world" if he wasn't highly skilled, and extremely confident in his abilities.
Now, I'm not saying that Lee couldn't be beaten, as that would cover an awful lot of martial artists wouldn't it? I feel however, his skill level was one in ten million. The best martial artists on the planet might have been/be unknowns in obscure areas. Who knows?
Groupies: I was amazed after watching a feature on the 'Travel Channel' at how many MA schools around the world have set up shrines to him. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world that worship/idolize him.
We must examine the question: what are the ramifications of doing so? There surely are much less worthy celebrities to idolize. It is just human nature to deify celebrities.
I have lived on this planet for nearly fifty years. I've spent the last twenty five trying to remove any myths surrounding Lee (in my spare time of course), and trying to focus on the truth. I recommend if one feels the need to have an idol, Lee is a good choice. Forget about his martial skill (whatever that may be) and look upon his other qualities. Lee was a great teacher, innovator, iconoclast, philosopher, self help advocate.
From what I've read about him, he was also an excellent husband, father and friend, with a love for kids and animals. These are the things that I've been mostly unfluenced by in the last twenty five years. The world would be a much better place if we all strove for these qualities.
On a side note...He has impacted the body building world as well. Names such as Dorian Yates, Flex Wheeler, Lou Ferrigno, Lenda Murray, Shawn Ray, Mike Matarazzo, etc.
These legends have all stated the impact Lee has had on their lives and body building, which is ironic, as Lee had never entered a contest in his life!

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