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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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#135500 - 01/15/05 03:39 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

I know I said that I had no further comment but I just had to say a few more things.
You said that you did all of this research, but you somehow missed the one Black Belt article specifically on the fight which has been posted on the web for quite some time. Here it is again.
Ya, maybe I wasn't there, but from what I've gathered from people in Wong's inner circle and based on my own exhaustive research, that article lays it out pretty close to the actual events.
Just the fact that Wong teaches anybody regardless of race (I myself am white) should indicate that there's something wrong with Linda Lee's official story on the matter. Not to mention the fact that he's taught some of the best non-asian practitioners out there!!
Also, Chen Zen, you want facts. Why would Ming Lum, a big martial arts promoter at the time, who knew both Bruce and Wong, say that the only wound he saw on Wong's face the next day was a slight scratch above his eye. If, like Linda Lee says, Lee had actually "pounded" Wong into submission on the floor, there would have definitely been more wounds. I submit that fact alone and the fact that the article in the Chinese Pacific Weekly (a San Francisco publication in Chinese) was real and Bruce never even made an attempt to reply to Wong's challenge. Before Bruce became famous, many people in the Chinese community knew the two had fought and most of them assumed, by Lee's inaction, that he had been beaten by the venerable Northern Shaolin Grandmaster. These are FACTS that cannot be disputed.
I would also like to pose the question, why was Bruce, according to Linda Lee in her biography, so bummed out after the fight with Wong? In her book she says that she had to comfort Lee on the back porch because he seemed to be really down on himself. Now come on, if he really had pulled off a swift 3 minute victory against one of the premier Grandmasters in the world, why would he be acting this way? For more about Wong and his lineage (which is that of the mighty Kuo Yu Chang) check out...
Once again, Lee was never specific about ever having fought Wong during his lifetime. It baffles me that people would trust his wife (who doesn't know sh*t about martial arts really) on these events. After all, after Lee's death she had all kinds of legal problems securing all of the rights to Lee's fortune. Is it that hard to believe that she would mix in some "bullsh*t with the ice cream" when trying to sell her story on Lee. Bruce wasn't even faithful to her.
Anyway, I guess I'm ready for another round if anyone wants to continue to dispute any of this. It's just that, allot of what I just said was already stated earlier on in the thread. I seem to find myself "pissing against the tide." Like I said earlier the Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too strong. Did it ever occur to anyone that the best masters in the world probably aren't on magazine covers or in movies but "behind the scenes" so to speak. The Chinese admonish the seeker to "beware the tiger in the tall grass and the dragon hidden from view."

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-15-2005).]

#135501 - 01/15/05 11:26 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms

You make a strong arguement, but towards the wrong person. If you read my original post I said I believe Wong won and gave my reasons.

As for Lee's marital status and his faithfulness to his wife have nothing to do with the arguement. They dont make him less of a fighter do they?

As for Linda Lee's account of consoling Bruce dont mean much either. Bruce would have been bummed win or lose for a few reasons.
The first reason being that, even had he won like the Lee society professes he did, then it still took a lot out of him and required more energy than he was used to expending. This would make him second guess his training all together.
The second reason is easy. Lets say you defeated a world renouned Grand Master. Not only that but,(according to Lee) You beat him with some ease. What does this leave yyou left to look forward to? If you could beat the best fighters in the world with no problem then there would be not be as much reason to continue your training would there?

I imagine that they were probably fairly equally matched in speed and technique. However, Wing Chun left Bruce with little to work with footwork wise. Also his trapping would be useless against a fighter with as much Skill as Wong. He would be forced to use the Bil Gee(Finger thrusts) and the chain punching. haveing so few weapons against a Master doesnt leave much to work with. I would Love to speak with Master Wong, not just to hear his account but also to here his ideas on street combat in general.

#135502 - 01/16/05 12:54 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

I really wasn't trying to argue with you in particular. You said that unless anyone has any concrete fact then you would have to end the thread. I was just frustrated because I feel like I've been producing facts since the thread got started.
Out of all of Wong's students, I'm pretty much much the only one I know of who's making a big stink about all of this stuff on Kung Fu forums. It just angers me when I hear him painted out as a villian cause he's actually a really honorable guy. As for discussing the Bruce Lee fight with him, there's not one current student that I know of (except the really old school guys) who dares discuss it with him. It's not that he has anything to hide. It's just that he doesn't want to be jugded by that fight alone and I think maybe he's still a little perturbed by the bad press it's given him.

#135503 - 01/16/05 03:57 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

I would also just like to add that, even though Linda Lee's account of the way things transpired was a grievous insult to Wong and his lineage, I think he has been well on his way towards making his peace with the whole thing. Honor, respect, and integrity are integral to his over-all make-up as a martial artist. Since, unlike Bruce, he's never been interested in becoming a famous movie star or an international sensation, he never chose to discuss the match publicly. Lee and Wong had agreed not to discuss the conflict. It was only when it seemed like Lee made public mention of it and when Linda Lee spread her version that he chose to say something on the matter. Even then, he remained very low-key. He knows that, no matter how loudly he proclaims to be the victor, there will always be nay sayers since Bruce's fame was so far-reaching. It's really not his aim to become an inter-national spectacle because of this one battle. To him it's just not worth discussing (I've never wanted to run the risk of pissing him off by doing so either).
As far as discussing matters of self defense and the like, one would have to be lucky enough to make it into his class in San Francisco. He mainly only teaches advanced and experienced martial artists these days. There are only two of us, who aren't as advanced in Chinese kung fu and who have managed to start learning his Bak Siu Lum (Northern Shaolin) curriculum. As for everyone else in his rather small class, he mainly teaches Sun style Hsing Yi and Yang style Tai Chi Chuan.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-16-2005).]

#135504 - 01/16/05 07:38 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
THESE threads represent all that is wrong with JKD. There are just WAY too many Bruce Lee "groupies" who buy into the myth and legend without looking at the facts.

This is all because he made a few movies and died young. Anyone that is famous and dies at a young age always takes on legendary status and Lee is no exception.

Lee was a brilliant, creative man. He fought NO ONE of any demonstrable skill level. During the two plus yeas that Lewis said he trained with Lee, they never even sparred.

Lee fought no one. They only thing he ever did were demonstrations. So, how is it that people can claim he was "the best"?

Lets just give it a rest folks, shall we? Perhaps this thread should be closed? JKD is about you and I - not Lee anway. Hows about talking about training or something?


#135505 - 01/16/05 09:20 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms

I know some of the contributors have produced facts here. I simply meant to say that for the most part people were simply biased one way or the other without any reason. I may make a trip out west for a few weeks in a couple of months. Id love to meet him if at all possible.

John, my sentiments exactly. Thats why I had mentioned closing the thread. I just like to make sure a dead horse has been beaten before it gets buried.

#135506 - 01/17/05 02:17 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

I would like to offer a final response to the Wong fight, as well as Lee myths and groupies:
If Wong had won the fight, or it was a draw, he should have sued the numerous publications/persons that had actually used his name, for slander and malice. If he had done so, the Lee biography books/mags might be telling quite a different story (which I had previously mentioned). I don't know the absolute truth, as I wasn't there. We need to examine Lee's life, battles and skill with a courtroom mentality. The general rule? If it doesn't seem logical, it probably isn't. Preponderance of evidence is also a key factor.
With that being said, there is debate as to whether Norris, Lewis, and Stone were actually Lee's students. They have all admitted to being students of his at one time or another. So, why would they take lessons from someone they could pound the snot out of? I know in boxing circles this is the norm, but at that time Lee was blowing everyone's mind, even the legendary Ed Parker. This, a direct result of his skill, not words. linda tells of a sparring match between Lee and Norris in his hotel room after the Internationals, only to find Norris red faced from frustration and embarrasement. This story again, has been printed hundreds of times in numerous publications (I have a few) and Norris never once disputed it. Lewis has been distancing himself from Lee and the JKD name. That is his right. I also know he is quite bitter about his decision not to co-star in Way of the Dragon, as he himself has stated so on occasion. He is still kicking himself for that one so to speak (who wouldn't?), as it is Norris forever immortalised on celluloid with Lee and not him. It would be insane to think Lee got to where he was, purely on hype and word of mouth, as one can prove absolute superiority in combat. It would also be extremely ludicrous for him to spout "To tell you the truth...I can beat any man in the world" if he wasn't highly skilled, and extremely confident in his abilities.
Now, I'm not saying that Lee couldn't be beaten, as that would cover an awful lot of martial artists wouldn't it? I feel however, his skill level was one in ten million. The best martial artists on the planet might have been/be unknowns in obscure areas. Who knows?
Groupies: I was amazed after watching a feature on the 'Travel Channel' at how many MA schools around the world have set up shrines to him. There are hundreds of millions of people around the world that worship/idolize him.
We must examine the question: what are the ramifications of doing so? There surely are much less worthy celebrities to idolize. It is just human nature to deify celebrities.
I have lived on this planet for nearly fifty years. I've spent the last twenty five trying to remove any myths surrounding Lee (in my spare time of course), and trying to focus on the truth. I recommend if one feels the need to have an idol, Lee is a good choice. Forget about his martial skill (whatever that may be) and look upon his other qualities. Lee was a great teacher, innovator, iconoclast, philosopher, self help advocate.
From what I've read about him, he was also an excellent husband, father and friend, with a love for kids and animals. These are the things that I've been mostly unfluenced by in the last twenty five years. The world would be a much better place if we all strove for these qualities.
On a side note...He has impacted the body building world as well. Names such as Dorian Yates, Flex Wheeler, Lou Ferrigno, Lenda Murray, Shawn Ray, Mike Matarazzo, etc.
These legends have all stated the impact Lee has had on their lives and body building, which is ironic, as Lee had never entered a contest in his life!

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