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#135490 - 12/31/04 12:09 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Dfox Offline
Member

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 38
Loc: place,colorado,usa
GOD!!!! you should better then this why would you even start saying something like this and continue it? and to assume that linda lee would lie about something like that.... maybe you should take a time machine ask bruce lee what he meant and meet linda before you say something like that.. and why would you care if bruce lee or any one that believed bruce lee thought he was the best why do you feel like you have to change peoples minds?
even so bruce lee said i can probably beat any body in the world he said probably can
he did not say he IS THE BEST he said PROBABLY CAN plus I would not doubt this man
because he is so determined enough to study
work outs martial arts and health the in time he probably could beat any one
and to go as far as saying that people are spreading lies bla bla bla that is so worse

how many people here know bruce lee?

[This message has been edited by Dfox (edited 12-31-2004).]

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#135491 - 12/31/04 12:36 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


scare? not bruce. instarted, his blood pressure began t rise." if you wanna fight,lets get with it"
wong j. mans bluff didn't work startled he tried to buy time by setting a day for the match and tried to outline the rules for it. but bruce wouldn't go for such nonsence. " since youre the one who's challenging me, then i'll make the rules. everything goes and the match is right now." jimmy kept the others from interfering as both men faced each other. bruce lee stood in his wing chun stance as his opponent got into a horse stance. confident, bruce quickly became the aggressor, pressing his opponent who started to back off. as bruce kept putting on pressure, wong began to retreat faster and faster. finally, he turned and ran with bruce right on his heels.
"i chased him and,like a fool, kept punching him behind his head and back. soon my fists began to swell from his hard head," he grinned.
"finally, i did something i'd never done before. i just put my arm around his neck and knocked him on his ass. i kept whacking him (on the floor) until he gave up"
jimmy told me later that the chinese community left them alone after that one incident. " you know that guy bruce beat up, he's an ass. after the fight, he went to the chinese newspaper in san francisco and told them that he'd beaten up bruce" jimmy explaned shaking his head.

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#135492 - 01/02/05 07:05 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


First thing straight im not gonna say Bruce Lee was the best, that's something we cannot prove. But Bruce was certainly one of the better fighters. The Movies make him look like superhuman with fights for over 10 min. In fact Bruce never fought for longer then 2-4 min. He always tried to finish a fight as quick as he can, he was a very fast (for example watch the last fight in big boss you'll see a scene where it seems like he kicks the man 2 times but infact if you'll slow it down you'll see that Bruce Lee kicks him 3 times). Bruce Lee was a man who search for his weakness and work them out. And i think the confrontation with mr. Jack Man really worked out for him. If he had Won or lost. He exploited his weakness making him wonder why he had lost or why the fight took so long. Learning from other martial artist, that's something a martial artist should do, learning what is effective even if it's an different style. You cant say karate is bad and Wushu is good, it's the person who use it (for example look on Kazaa for Kyoshinkai vs Wing Chun, i even think it's not wing chun but it says so, in this movie Kung Fu get there ass smacked by Kyoshinkai because they could't come nearby the Kyoshinkai dude's who uses kicks to hold them off a distance).

I think Bruce was inexperiencied in the fight against mr. Jack Man. Maybe he'd won i guess then it was luck. When Bruce invented JKD he may stood a better chance. JKD isn't superior JKD it is effective, for example a shaolin monk uses monkey style and makes a beatiful kick, wich took much energy from him instead he could just kick the opponent resulting in equal damage. It's the shaolin training that makes him good not his style, I think shaolin wushu is too artistic, it may look good but it isn't effective.

As for mr. Jack Man i think he's a formidabl e fighter and i would not for any chance stand before him in a ring (right now). He's a great person and an great person makes a great fighter.

As for JKD it's F*cked up right now, there teaching you the JKD style and it's not what Bruce wanted. I refer my syle as my own style, i'vepractise a lot of styles.I just picked up few tricks what worked for me and train in another style, i think that's what bruce lee wanted with JKD, after all he doesn't want you all to become clones of him if you practise JKD.

As for Shaolin Kung Fu, i don't think it's bad or something i got my ass kicked, but it's very close ranged. When you'll play your cards right kung fu can be very effective as long as you dont use tricks that ain't neccesary. Like a scene from Indianna Jones where a martial artist show a lot of tricks, and indianna just pick up his gun and shoot him down, instead that guy just had to go straight at indianna..

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#135493 - 01/08/05 10:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


There is no proof that he wasn't the best fighter, a lot of the stuff you say has no bearing on wether or not he is, it's just your ridiculous opinions. and jeet kune do not bearing any champions is completley irrelivant to wether or not bruce was a great fighter. so ANYWAY Bruce didn't just go around kicking famous peoples butts. That doesn't mean he wasn't great. and umm there is a difference, skilled fighters know what they are doing and street people just run at you and try to pound you to death. fool don't say dumb stuff like that. any him coming out publicly and saying he can beat anybody doesn't have ANYTHING to do with being a great fighter...what are you ON!? just no...hah

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#135494 - 01/09/05 03:35 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


I've been in the arts for 35 years. i've taught/trained both streetfighters and ring fighters. Anyone that says there is no difference between the two is full of sh*t.
The reason? Simple, ring fighters are bound by not only physical parameters, they are bound by rules and regs. Have any of you ever seen a Muay Thai fighter disqualified from an 'Above the Belt' fight, due to leg kicks, or the use of knees and elbows due to his instinctive condition for the ring? It happens all the time!
The streets are much much different. There are no refs to keep you safe, and no judges to say who wins if there was no knockout.
Let's not get into the realm of the absurd.

Regarding Lee...
I agree far too many people have elevated him to Demi-God stature, which is a shame because it takes away from his true mental/physical abilities.
I have spent the last thirty five years trying to seperate fact from fiction.
There WAS a code in Chinatown Oakland for Chinese only to teach Chinese. It is still adhered to today by many instructors there even though we have reached the twenty first century. The FACT that Lee continued to teach anyone he chose, is proof of his victory. Now, while Lee himself rarely mentioned Wong's name, quite a few others DID. These stories were published by every martial arts mag of the day. If Wong in fact DID win, why didn't he sue these numerous publications for slander? After all, a martial artists reputation is his bread and butter! Not one of these mags has ever been sued by Wong regarding this story. Even Mito Uyeharra owner/publisher of blackbelt magazine couldn't understand why Wong didn't sue if he had in fact, beaten Lee. These stories are still published to this day. The reason is simple...Lee won. Albeit, not a quick victory, as the result of this altercation, caused him to take a good, hard look at not only his combat skills, but his physical conditioning as well. Thus, the birth of JKD.
There are some who claim he had super human strength (ridiculus) or he was capable of hitting a man twenty times a second (also ridiculus).
I will say that he became exceptionally strong. Especially for a man his size. James Coburn had his forearm grabbed by Lee, and said it felt like his arm was in a vice.
In a feature article written by one of the world's foremost fitness publications 'MUSCLE & FITNESS', the author went into his research on Lee a skeptic, only to emerge a full blown fan. It goes without saying, everything printed had to be substantiated, or they would be laughed out of the business. According to this article, Lee was able to hold a 125 pound barbell straight out at shoulder height for several seconds without a quiver. I have never seen anybody be able to do this in thirty five years, and I've trained some very strong individuals. Lee was also capable of punching at a speed of 5/100s of a second.
His kicking speed was 8/100s of a second.
He was able to close a distance of eight feet in just under 1/2 second.
Lee also owned a 300 pound heavy bag he could slap against the ceiling with a sidekick, with no prior movement. Bob Wall said everyone else could barely get it to swing. Norris witnessed Lee thrusting his fingers through unopened cans of (pre-aluminum) Coca-Cola. Lee hit with such impact, he collapsed a set of boxing headgear with steel rods welded to it for reinforcement, previously tested by hitting it with a sledgehammer to check the welds. This magazine also features an in depth look at his 'TRUE' training regimen, much of it in his own handwriting.
This article is a must read for all Lee fans. I am very fortunate to own a copy myself.
To sum up: Let's NOT put Lee on a god like pedestal, however, let's give credit where it is due!


[This message has been edited by NEBULA_ONE (edited 01-09-2005).]

[This message has been edited by NEBULA_ONE (edited 01-09-2005).]

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#135495 - 01/10/05 07:16 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NEBULA_ONE:
I've been in the arts for 35 years. i've taught/trained both streetfighters and ring fighters. Anyone that says there is no difference between the two is full of sh*t.[/QUOTE]
OK, did I say "street fighters and ring fighters?" No, I said skilled fighters. There's no need to split hairs and say you're either a skilled ring fighter or a skilled street fighter and you can't be both. Most MAists I know train for so-called street fighting (potentially lethal hand to hand) and competition fighting. Even Bruce!! He fought in amateur competitions in Hong Kong. He didn't use Wing Chun eye and neck gouges in the ring did he? I'm sorry, but if you can win on the street and you suc in the ring (or visa-versa) I think that's pretty f*cking pathetic and it means that you're not really an all-around skilled fighter. A truely great fighter can do both.
[QUOTE]I have spent the last thirty five years trying to seperate fact from fiction.
There WAS a code in Chinatown Oakland for Chinese only to teach Chinese. It is still adhered to today by many instructors there even though we have reached the twenty first century.
[/QUOTE]
Ya, you're right, but Wong Jack Man never adhered to that rule. If he did, he wouldn't have trained some of the best non-asian martial artists out there. Including Peter Ralston (who was the first white guy to win an inter-national competition in China) and Brent Hamby (the 1999 USAWKF National Champion). And no, he didn't train them just to "save face." Along with Brandon Lai, Wong was one of the first Asian teachers to teach with open doors in the SF Chinese community. The reasons for the fight were completely different. Mainly it was because Lee was talking smack about allot of MA teachers and he challenged a friend of Wong's. Later, Linda Lee came out with her version of the events in her biography which made Bruce seem like a total hero who challenged racial stereo-types. I'll admit that he did gain some ground for Asians in America in a major way, but not when it came to the Wong Jack Man conflict. That whole part of her biography was contrived in order to make it seem like he was even more righteous and cool than he was. Linda Lee is, after all, still making butt loads of cash off his name.
[QUOTE]Now, while Lee himself rarely mentioned Wong's name, quite a few others DID. These stories were published by every martial arts mag of the day. If Wong in fact DID win, why didn't he sue these numerous publications for slander? After all, a martial artists reputation is his bread and butter! Not one of these mags has ever been sued by Wong regarding this story. Even Mito Uyeharra owner/publisher of blackbelt magazine couldn't understand why Wong didn't sue if he had in fact, beaten Lee.[/QUOTE]
Uyeharra and other publishers were just sour that Wong basically shunned the public eye and refused to do interviews after a point. For those in the know his reputation still holds water. In reference to law suits, Wong did try to sue Linda and the whole Bruce Lee establishment back in the early eighties after she tried to portray him as a villian in her biography and after they were printing comics in Mexico and elsewhere with caricatures of Wong with a cue getting his ass kicked by Lee. He lost because, just like in the Carol Bernett court case around the same time, Wong was considered a "public figure." One last thing, despite all of your "research" you failed to mention that, after it seemed as though Lee was referring to Wong in an interview, Wong went to The Chinese Pacific Weekly with his version of the fight and he straight up challenged Lee to a public rematch. Why did Lee NOT respond to this challenge? Because HE LOST! And he knew he'd get schooled again. Oh, and anything Jimmy Lee said can't be trusted. Supposedly he stepped in and stopped Wong's friends from interfereing. First of all, these were all some experienced and tough motherf*ckers. Just one of those guys could have beaten Jimmy Lee with his pinky.
I'm sorry, but this thread is getting old for me. It seems like I can keep busting out with all kinds of facts and there's always going to be somebody to disagree with me. The Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too damn strong. The main reason I came out like this is because I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived. I've also trained with some of his former students and proteges and I've gotten the inside scoop from people close to Wong and others who were actually there. Making Wong Jack Man out to be a villian is insulting to my school and my lineage. There's been allot of bullsh*t spread around about his fight with Bruce and to be honest, it pisses me off!! Anyway, to hell with this thread, I've got no further comment.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 01-13-2005).]

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#135496 - 01/10/05 11:44 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


'OK, did I say "street fighters and ring fighters?" No, I said skilled fighters. There's no need to split hairs and say you're either a skilled ring fighter or a skilled street fighter and you can't be both.'

I never said you can't be both. I merely said that there was a distinct difference between the two. I believe the majority of martial artists, if they get any sparring time at all, is in the classroom with their fellow students.
Two things happen:
1. They get conditioned to fighting people within the same style, and are conditioned BY their opponents because they get to know a fighters individual style, their quirks and how to read them.
2. If the particular art they are learning has few/no street effective techniques (eye strike, throat strike, leg inversions, kill zones etc.) they wont be prepared for the types of fighters that DO this type of training/fighting.
In the time I've been in the arts, and witnessing what people are learning in the 'chain' schools, the lack of street preparation seems abundant here. It also works the other way around too. Adhereing to physical parameters, and rules for striking when you are not used to it, can be extremely frustrating as well.

'Most MAists I know train for so-called street fighting (potentially lethal hand to hand) and competition fighting. Even Bruce!! He fought in amateur competitions in Hong Kong. He didn't use Wing Chun eye and neck gouges in the ring did he?'

No he didn't.
However, this was BEFORE he came to America at the end of the fifties. After he arrived here, quite alot of his ideas had changed and evolved. That's what one is SUPPOSED to do! And I absolutely agree with you...A good fighter can do both!

'The reasons for the fight were completely different. Mainly it was because Lee was talking smack about allot of MA teachers and he challenged a friend of Wong's. Later, Linda Lee came out with her version of the events in her biography which made Bruce seem like a total hero who challenged racial stereo-types.'

I really don't doubt that Lee WAS talking smack about certain individuals. He is highly regarded by some for being that brazen. He spoke his mind, and didn't care who he upset. Because he completely believed in what he was saying. I'll admit, he could have been much more tactful...Hell, he could have shown some tact!
If things happened as you say, then I would be pissed off too! The right, and logical thing for Wong to have done was, sue the hell out of these publications and the purveyors of these slanderous remarks. If this one conflict's TRUE details had been brought out in court, and Wong won the case, the Lee books and mags would be telling quite a different story these days!
He should not have waited twenty years to do something about it.

'Uyeharra and other publishers were just sour that Wong basically shunned the public eye and refused to do interviews after a point.'

I can't really believe that. When one hides from the truth, one gets bitten! And that's what happened to Wong. If he really did win, he should have fought it tooth and nail right from the get go! As a result of his NOT doing so, he will forever be painted as a villain and a coward.
Equally important is that these publications had so many articles to feature, on so many martial artists, the only one that BECAME a problem was Lee himself. In 1999, the martial arts community sent cease and desist letters to Blackbelt, and every other publication that constantly featured Lee on their cover, and told them if they don't start featuring other MA's on the cover they were going to boycott the magazines. The publishers had a big problem: With Lee on the cover, they sold ten times as many magazines and kept their profit margins way up. On the other hand, if they don't quit, they were going to lose some of the martial arts greatest practitioners.
They chose the latter.

' after it seemed as though Lee was referring to Wong in an interview, Wong went to The Chinese Pacific Weekly with his version of the fight and he straight up challenged Lee to a public rematch. Why did Lee NOT respond to this challenge? Because HE LOST! And he knew he'd get schooled again. '

I've never read or heard anything about this in 35 years! If you can offer up some absolute proof, so be it. One cannot deny absolute fact!

' Oh, and anything Jimmy Lee said can't be trusted. Supposedly he stepped in and stopped Wong's friends from interfereing. First of all, these were all some experienced and tough motherf*ckers. Just one of those guys could have beaten Jimmy Lee with his pinky.'

Well, Jimmy was there, you and I weren't.
One can say that Jimmy's word can't be trusted, but one can also say not to take the word of Wong also. Stalemate!!

'The Bruce Lee propaganda machine is just too damn strong.'

I agree with you here too.
I guess Wong sued to little/too late.
And it's only going to grow stronger!

'I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived.'

That is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it.

The best of luck to you on your martial quest!

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#135497 - 01/13/05 09:45 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by NEBULA_ONE:

'I've been training with Wong Jack Man for the past two years and I can tell you with certainty that not only is he a really humble and cool guy but he's more skilled and powerful than Lee was and would be now if he had lived.'

[/QUOTE]

Your bias for Wong Jack Man seem to rival those who are Bruce Lee fans. That would not make your comments any truer than theirs since you personally were not there when the fight took place. Also, I can tell you with certainty that those comments favoring Bruce are no more absurd than your comment about Wong Jack Man being more powerful than Bruce since you never knew Bruce Lee personally.
The fact that Bruce was able to repeatedly punch Wong Jack Man in the head from behind does not say a whole lot as to the evasive defense of Wong other than the fight wasn't going quite the way he wanted too.
Bruce in his admittance is actually giving credit to Wong in the fact that he said he had to change his style of fighting (Wing Chun).
The assertion that Bruce has never really fought any real (tournament) fighters of record and what the outcome would be is a subject of debate that will go on for years. However, has there ever been a so called real tournament fighter of record that have publicly came out and said they beat Bruce Lee, that being Joe Lewis...Chuck Norris or anyone else, in a sparring session or one who ever challenged Bruce to a fight while he was alive?? I haven't heard of any, and if not...why not? A lot can happen and change in 9 years. Bruce Lee at the height of his fame was one to be feared.

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#135498 - 01/13/05 11:46 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Ive let this thread go on for some time to no new resolution. If anyone who was an eye witness would like to reply, Or Wong Jack Man himself, thn by all means do so.

However, since none of the rest of us here were there, how much does our opinions mean? Normally Id say speculate all you want but every Bruce Lee thread outthere turns into a "No He didnt" Yeas He did" thread. Its boring and actually quite aggravating. So unless anyone here has any real concrete facts on the subject then I will be forced to end this thread. you have a few days.

Chen Zen

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#135499 - 01/14/05 01:15 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
Anonymous
Unregistered


It seems like everyone here is pretty pissed off about who is the "greatest" because Ali is (hope someone laughed). but compare the facts, what kind of fight is JKD effective in and what kind of fight is Wing Chun effective in and then if two masters went at each other, what will be the outcome? This is not a complicated question so don't make it.

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