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differences between shaolin and wing chun ?
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#135480 - 12/23/04 03:58 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

i tink the post abt bruce lees physical abilities isnt fair.bruce lee training purposes maybe wasnt using heavy wts in the first place.juz becos he uses wts doesnt means he wants to be arnold or juz becos he cycles doesnt means he wants to be lance armstrong rite?his aim was to be an efficient fighter in ways tat he tinks so...

#135481 - 12/25/04 10:52 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

Too bad he wasn't efficient enough to beat Wong Jack Man (or Jack Man Bad as he was known in SF's Chinatown). Or wait, maybe that was a good thing since that fight probably had a significant effect on his over-all style. After all, he start using higher kicks after that bout which was a trademark of Wong's Northern Shaolin gung fu. Maybe he learned something.

#135482 - 12/26/04 10:28 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
DragonFire1134 Offline
Former Moderator

Registered: 08/25/03
Posts: 1479
Loc: Theodore (mobile), Alabama
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
Too bad he wasn't efficient enough to beat Wong Jack Man (or Jack Man Bad as he was known in SF's Chinatown). [/QUOTE]

You say that as though you were an eyewitness! But I'm not here to discuss that, lets move on to something else...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bandit Killer:
After all, he start using higher kicks after that bout which was a trademark of Wong's Northern Shaolin gung fu. Maybe he learned something. [/QUOTE]

He trained high kicks long before the Wong confrontation. In his gung fu manual, it is written;

"In training kick high, in fighting kick low, kick hard"

Anyway it was something along that order. When Bruce had Jhoon show him some of TKD's high kicks, it wasn't to add to his self defense arsenal, but mainly to add show in his movies.

Bruce knew high kicks really had no place in real fighting, but he knew what an audience liked to see...

And simplicity just isn't one of them.

On a side note, does anyone know Wong's age at the time of this fight? I'm just curious.

#135483 - 12/26/04 06:52 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

Both Wong and Bruce were 24 years old. Bruce was about 140 lbs. (at 5'7") and Wong (at 5'10") was a lighter 135 lbs. Of course, Wong Sifu looks nothing like the way he was portrayed in Ron Cowen's "Dragon, The Bruce Lee Story." In that movie he looks more like some sort of WWE wrestler.

Since the conflict happened back in 1964, when Bruce was still only using his Wing Chun, It's been said that Bruce didn't employ any high kicks at all (since Wing Chun doesn't use any). Eye witnesses said that Bruce was kicking for the groin while Wong was blocking his kicks with his legs. Maybe Bruce wouldn't have been as likely to use higher kicks in a real fight but they were and are an integral part of JKD training.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-26-2004).]

#135484 - 12/27/04 03:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

no they aren't

#135485 - 12/27/04 04:30 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation
JKogas Offline

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Who really cares what happened all those years ago anyway, lol?!

It's over and done with. People should stop worshiping Lee as if he were some kind of DEMIGOD!

Just imagine if Lee had actually fought someone with a legitimate fight record instead of some unknown guy who "zoomed in from OBLIVION" (having since zoomed right back OUT to Oblivion)?! He'd have been KTFO'd for Chrissakes!

Lets all give it a rest, eh?


#135486 - 12/27/04 04:07 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

I guess I need some JKD edu-bacation. I was under the impression that medium to high kicks had their place among the various JKD techniques. In Bruce's "Advanced Fighting Techniques" and other books, he shows how to use high kicks after a feint or at the moment your opponent's attacking.

And ya, I agree with Kogas, where's the pro fighting record? Where are the trophies? Sure, allot of prize fighters trained with him, but they were just trying to learn new techniques. I'm only saying all of this because Bruce had a Mt. Rushmore sized ego and actually said "I can whip any man in the world." It also greatly disturbs me that people would actually think that this former movie star was the "best" martial artist ever.

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-27-2004).]

#135487 - 12/30/04 11:34 AM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

bruce did win he talks about the account in one of his books i have i will read it out later. he was the best

#135488 - 12/30/04 01:14 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

please heres a interivew

PB: You once mentioned Joe Lewis in regard to a conversation you had with Dan Inosanto in which Danny claimed that during a workout session with Bruce Lee that Lewis "could not do anything." Can you expound on this?
JD: It is hard to recall the exact conversations that took place many years ago. But this was the gist of the talk. Danny had seen Bruce Spar with Joe and Chuck Norris and said he would neutralize everything they tried. His ability to close, trap and shut down any attack was amazing. I did not doubt this since I had had personal experience with his skills. Bruce was a street fighter, and they were tournament players. There is a definite difference between the two. I have always been more than happy to explain the differences to those who think that winning trophies and smashing heads is the same thing.

PB: In another interview, you once said Lee "could have beaten anyone regardless of size and strength." With martial artists reaching new levels in training, do you think Lee would have the same superiority over today's fighters as he did back when you knew him?
JD: Yes. The reason is what he did and how he did it. Todayís fighter is bigger and stronger, yet really does much of the same thing when fighting. It is difficult to explain in writing, but easy when doing it in person. A large part of the problem in communicating Bruceís skills is that most people do not understand what a street fight is. It is not a tournament, not UFC or K1 or the Sabaki challenge. It is Neanderthal. It is no quarter and the only goal is to really hurt or kill the opponent. It is stupid and mindless, yet happens everyday. Bruce had two levels of action: two seconds or less or play. Meaning the fight was over in a blink or he played cat and mouse because he had no respect for the personís skills. I do not care how strong you are, what rank you are, what style you are, if you cannot see it coming you cannot stop it. If, at the other end of that invisible movement was the floating punch, then it was over before it began.

PB: It seems every era of Lee's students seem to think he was at a point of evolution over the last. But for someone like myself, who has read countless interviews over the years, it seems Bruce already had a lot his advanced methods while in Seattle. Your thoughts?
JD: Bruce evolved all through his short life. However, I believe, in those first few years, Bruce discovered his personal answers to be the best fighter. Once discovered, he filed them away and began his quest to create the best martial arts system. His belief that a fight should not take over two seconds was basic to his discoveries. The longer the fight, the more chance for luck to come into play. Bruce wanted to control the outcome, not hope that he was going to be lucky. One of the most important concepts that Bruce shared with me was that you could become a master of a few techniques, but never a lot. He felt that if you could define the elements of a fight and design techniques to directly overwhelm them, then you were developing the ultimate system. If the total list of techniques did not exceed ten, then becoming a master of them was very realistic. I have followed this thought, both in my teaching (the tool pouch mentality) and in my own training. I am a good teacher and know my material well, but my students often become better than me in many elements of Wing Chun Do. But, for my own purposes, I know less than 10 techniques that I have total confidence will wipe out anyone I should have to fight. Anyone. Not bragging, just confident. In my demonstrations I try and share this concept so people will have some insight as to why Bruce was so effective in his survival skills.

PB: Jesse Glover's brother, Mike Lee, has been rumored to be one of Lee's most gifted students. Did you know Mike and would you agree with the assessment regarding his abilities?
JD: Mike was very good. I remember him as being very young and into running when I trained with Bruce. I know his brother Jesse worked with him a lot. I am unaware of just how much Bruce worked with Mike, so I cannot really make an assessment of him.
PB: There has been a lingering rumor that you and Bruce had a falling out in your friendship at one time. Is this true and if so please explain the circumstances and if you two remained friends after he left for Oakland.
JD: It was not a rumor. It was true. It was my fault. After I broke away from regular classes I would go down and visit Bruce in his underground club on King Street. After one of his classes I was talking to some of the students and they asked why I had stopped training. I mentioned that I felt Bruce was leaving out important pieces of what made things work. Bruce heard about my comments and when I visited again confronted me, very uptight, and asked why I said what I did. I told him and he said I had no right to make comments to his class. I agreed and apologized. He was slapping some gloves into his other palm and suggested I was challenging him. He was very upset and seemed to be pushing for a fight. I knew I was on very dangerous ground. To fight Bruce when he was calm was insanity, but to do it when he was mad was to invite sudden death. The only amusing memory of the event was that in that period of my life I carried a gun. I had it in my coat pocket and my finger was on the trigger. I calmly thought to myself that if he leaped at me I was going to blow a hole in him. As it was I apologized again, turned and walked out. That was the last time I spoke to Bruce. I have to be honest. Jesse was his friend. Taky was his friend. I was a training part a dummy. I knew Bruce for a few years, went to school with him, ate with him, went to the movies with him and hung out with him and the others. Our common interest was fighting. My personal evaluation of him will stay personal. But, as a fighter, he was the best.

#135489 - 12/30/04 04:51 PM Re: The Wong Jack Man Confrontation

Just because JD thinks he was "the best" doesn't mean it is so. Besides the challenges by amateur street punks on the movie set and hand picked (by Bruce) Karate guys at that tournament in Long Beach, I will ask once again, which truely great martial artists did Bruce fight? Some rumor from JD (who's character is questionable if he had to carry around a gun all the time and he thought of shooting Bruce) doesn't cut it. Has anyone ever asked Chuck Norris or Joe Lewis if they felt they could beat him? As far as recorded matches, Bruce didn't really fight any of the more premier Asian kung fu or karate fighters during his time except Wong Jack Man who was a grandmaster and a child prodigy before he was comissioned to open The Jing Mo Athletic Associaion in San Francisco. Speaking of Bruce's way of continueing a fight because he didn't have any respect for his opponents skills, that's probably what Wong was doing during their 20 minute bout back in '64. Apparently Wong got Bruce's head locked under his left arm three times before letting him go every time. Only to have Bruce charge at him even more enraged. The respected martial artists who were there (Clarence Lee, William Chen, and others) said with certainty that Wong was the better fighter. Despite what people think about that fight now (due to Linda Caldwell's bunk version), Bruce never talked about it while he was alive. Like I said before, he mentioned some "kung fu cat" who he had beaten but he never mentioned Wong's name. If he really did beat Wong then why didn't he answer his challenge? For more on this read this link...

And there's no difference between a "street fighter" and a skilled martial artist. What, I couldn't use my Bak Siu Lum to kick somebody's ass on the street as well as in the kwoon. By the way, that link will take you to EBM Kung Fu Academy's website. I've trained there and I can tell you that Brent Hamby, Dan Carr, and Dave Tircuit are some tough hombres. All three were trained by Wong Jack Man himself. This fact not only proves that Linda Lee's reason for Bruce and Wong's fight (the right to teach the quilo) is total BS, but that Wong has produced great martial artists and winning competitors (Brent Hamby is the 1999 USAWKF National Champion and he has produced more than one national champ himself). And JKD has produced how many champions? NADA! And I'm sorry the differences between sport and real fighting are negligible. If you're a good fighter it doesn't matter if you're in the ring or on the street you still have to put up or shut up as they say. If you can't follow the rules in the ring and you just have to kill somebody in order to beat them, it shows that you just don't have any control.

And look, I'm not trying to say that Bruce wasn't a good fighter in his own right. I'm just trying to de-bunk this totally idiotic notion that he was "the best." There is just absolutely no proof of that. People tend to believe that because Bruce was famous for bragging about how good he was. Because he died before anyone could beat him publicly everyone thinks that this stupid claim is true. Isn't it strange that he would make such claims and not try and publicly proove it. Anyone who comes out publicly and says they can beat anyone in the world is not a master and is definitely beatable. Just look at all of the fighters who have (Ali, Tyson, etc...).

[This message has been edited by Bandit Killer (edited 12-30-2004).]

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