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#135313 - 09/14/04 10:54 AM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Why do people always think that others will automatically jump in when fight hits the ground or that, the guy who took his opponent down will NOT be a part of a crowd himself? These are just weird thoughts that people CONTINUOUSLY have. Itís always struck me as a bit odd. Another thing people have the tendency to think is that others wonít jump in if the fight is kept standing. Odd stuff here folksÖ

(edited 09-14-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

John it happens.

anway, I have to agree with some comments you made before, the neck and elbow tie up is not only good for following into knees to the face position but its great for side knee also.

I was working with (I am not a trainer but have good knowledge of standing clinch) a couple of my fellow fighters on free days recently. 1st round, I am not taking sides here but I can see where you are coming from when you say you can simply raise your head up and pull out BUT this is a technique that the majority of non grappling (standing grappling or ground) fighters dont even think about, the immediate reaction to someone with no knowledge is to pull back and out which leaves them right open for an upward rising knee to their retreating face. know what I mean?

someone goes for neck & elbow tie up hoping (this is assuming both parties know how to clinch grapple) to get into plumm, what do you do? ok here's one thing you can do, you roll you head back to prevent your neck being pulled down but remember about headbutts, so ideally you want to close the distance between your head and his head so at least you dont have teath or headbutting distance (also John and 1st round, when you teach your students to do neck ties ask them to place their hands on the crown of the opponents head, not the neck, the top back [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I think you'll find a lot more leverage this way)

....ok beofre I confuse myself.

he is neck and elbow tie up, your head is starting to drop down, ok... the hand which is on his arm (at the elbow) which is around your neck/head, know what i mean? try this, it is unconfortable and hurts enough to make the guy wanna let go. pull his elbow down and push in and up, he should feel sharp pain in his shoulder, with the head/neck had pull his head in towards his arm which is being pushed in , you are like trying to make his head touch his elbow...

haha... does this make sense? This is a good way to get out of a neck & elbow tie up.

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#135314 - 09/14/04 11:09 AM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
Know Iím sorry, but I donít see how punches to the face or even the body will set up knees. Oh sure, I know PLENTY of ways in which this will happen THEORETICALLYÖ.but I donít know as many ways that such things occur in the REAL WORLD. Believe me, Iím one who looks to put in his knees when possible and Iím always awaiting such an opportunity. Now in real fights, Iíve seen this done and have learned ways to do this out of real experience. Iíve yet to see knees to the face which are set up directly by punching.

-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

http://crew.tweakers.net/lunatic/zooi/RamonDekkerHighlight-luna.wmv

go to 00:45 and watch from there. Punches are perfect for leading into knees, neck tie knee strikes and almost any other attack.

oops! you guys are argueing over FACE knee strikes.


[This message has been edited by MuayThai (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135315 - 09/14/04 07:17 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

You are being pendantic John.

Punches don't lead into clinching and knees and elbows?
[/QUOTE]

I never said that. I said that punching attacks wonít directly lead to knees to the face(without grappling of some kind). I had mentioned that grappling was one half of fighting and was a critical skill to have. You see, the point was made (by 1st Round KO) that grappling isnít important.

Here was his exact quote (regarding his point as to why you donít need grappling of any sort):

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 1st Round KO:

lead punches before knees will allow you to land at least 1 extremely hard knee to the face which will in turn allow you to start rapid fire blasting his face and the fight quickly ends...
[/QUOTE]

Essentially meaning that, you wonít need grappling because all you need to do is fire punches, and, that those punches could lead directly into knees to the face. I have stated that Iíve not once seen punches leading directly to knees to the face (unless itís a jumping knee strike).

My point being that, WITHOUT GRAPPLING, knees to the face are just not a realistic tactic. You have to have a controlling position to land knees to the face on an individual in order to truly launch an effective knee attack. THAT IS GRAPPLING and, itís just another reason (in a long line of reasons) why I say that grappling is not just important, but a CRITICAL skill to have.

How else are you going to land knees other than by a JUMPING knee strike, which although possible, isnít something Iíd recommend in a no rules setting.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Punches don't lead into clinching and knees and elbows? What do you do, jump there, how DOES it work in a real fight?
[/QUOTE]

Mark, that was exactly my point. You DONíT just jump there. It takes grappling, which is what 1st Round KO was saying was so unimportant. I was merely stating the opposite.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

More fights stop than go on for pain. I don't beleive you will say pain makes people keep on going...something's got to give eventually.
[/QUOTE]

What I am saying is, the adrenaline surge in a real fight is enough to block many of the pain receptors.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Then again, you can't hurt some people. Train fighters do keel over in pain. How many boxing "knock outs" are mentally and physically giving up rather than loss of consciousness?
[/QUOTE]

Well, my friend didnít keel over in pain from a broken arm suffered during a fight. He fought on and won via knock out. Those people are out there. Plus, it depends on what youíre fighting FOR doesnít it?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

People don't walk away from plane crashes, or at least crashes where the planes fall out of the sky
[/QUOTE]

Now you want to QUANTIFY things. Look, airplane crashes are airplane crashes. Iíll go and find some examples for you bring them back. But, lets not split hairs over something like that. I think my point is easily seen. (Wanna talk about being pedanticÖ)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

If the only viable attack is a choke, to be applied against skilled opponents ho looking for trouble, buy a handgun and a humvee. Don't go outside much either.
[/QUOTE]

I never said that the only viable attack was a choke (although it may in fact be one of the best). And Iím not paranoid either. I spoke the truth about the necessity of understanding grappling and thatís it.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

My punches hurt for two reasons - they hit hard enough to do damage, and I know where to hit. Tried breathing with cracked ribs?
[/QUOTE]

That would be assuming that someone could crack my ribs in the first place, and, if my life was in jeopardy brother, you can BET YOUR ASS that I would FIND a way to breathe!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mark Hill:

Horse steroids and PCP cannot make you impervious to difficulty in breathing.
[/QUOTE]

Sure, ok, fine, whatever. YOU Mark are capable of just waltzing right in and destroying people with your sh*t. So lets leave you out of this equation and just let the rest of the mortals among us deal with the realities of pain thresholds, k?!


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:
John it happens.

[/QUOTE]

ANYTHING is possible Muay Thai, but to say that everything is probable is another story.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Öanway, I have to agree with some comments you made before, the neck and elbow tie up is not only good for following into knees to the face position but its great for side knee also.
[/QUOTE]

Grappling is important for knee strikes. Thatís why you see it so much in muay Thai. Without grappling, 90% of knees to the face donít happen. That was my whole argument against 1st Round KO.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

Ö.1st round, I am not taking sides here but I can see where you are coming from when you say you can simply raise your head up and pull out
[/QUOTE]

Not from a front headlock. That was my point.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

also John and 1st round, when you teach your students to do neck ties ask them to place their hands on the crown of the opponents head, not the neck, the top back [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG] I think you'll find a lot more leverage this way)
[/QUOTE]

True, more leverage for the Plumm is found by going onto the crown of the head, but Iím not referring to the plumm when speaking of the neck tie Ė Iím talking about the neck tie (collar tie) found in wrestling. Itís a different animal.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MuayThai:

oops! you guys are argueing over FACE knee strikes.
[/QUOTE]

Bingo. Punches can lead to knees for certain. I realize that. Hello!!! What 1st Round KO was saying was that punches can lead directly to knees to the face. Thatís ABSURD unless youíre just a foot TALLER than your opponent.


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-14-2004).]

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#135316 - 09/14/04 07:58 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
Anonymous
Unregistered


John, I know adrenaline is powerful. There ares stoires of women liftig up cars to get their babies etc, I don't know if they are true. What I do know is soldiers have gone on to complete missions after being wounded multiple times (google Albert Jacka VC). However, they describe being hit the same as being punched, but it's very hot.

If you have a cracked sternum, broked ribs, sure, you can breathe, but not to the level of intense physical activity. I don't think I have a high pain threshold, but I am sure if a UFC fighter came up vs Tank Abbot, who suffered his injuries, his body would have to go totally anaerobic for the durtation of the fight. This can't happen, he would pass out. There are limits. If your mate dislocated his shoulder or knee, I doubt he could have fought on.

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#135317 - 09/14/04 08:32 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Mark,

I'm not disagreeing with you. My philosophy is just a little different and perhaps it's just one of details and semantics.

In my view, fights are won primarily through two means: Head trauma and structural trauma. In the case of head trauma, that's fairly self explanatory -- it's loss of consciousness (by whatever means).

Structural trauma meaning, breaking or dislocation of "something". That's different than mere "pain". Even in the case of having broken something, people can still fight on even THEN! I say this because people have the tendency to underestimate their opponents. This is especially true with traditional martial artists, as has been my experience as well as the experiences of many other people (not saying that is the case with YOU).

I bring these points up for the rest of the readers here, many of whom think that fighting is just some "push button" affair where "I'll just punch here, here and here and he'll just fall to the ground like a bag of bricks".

That is NOT reality. Promoting any contrary philosophy is irresponsible at best.


-John

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#135318 - 09/15/04 06:28 AM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
True, more leverage for the Plumm is found by going onto the crown of the head, but Iím not referring to the plumm when speaking of the neck tie Ė Iím talking about the neck tie (collar tie) found in wrestling. Itís a different animal.[/QUOTE]


Explain, if you can put it into words, the wrestling neck tie you're talking about.

Is it where you have your elbows kind of controling the opponents collar bones with the hands around the neck squezzing the area on the side of the neck?

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#135319 - 09/15/04 10:47 AM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
ok John go to 'martial arts' forum, I dug something up that is interesting. In your club gallery photos I couldnt help but notice how similar the tie ups you are using were to Thai clinch. So off I went in search of wrestling techniques on the net. It seems you are using Greco Roman wrestling, am I correct?

Collar tie up is in actual fact the same as what we do in Thai clinch

*both hands behind opponent's neck, inside his arms - Thai tie up

*one hand behind opponent's neck, one hand on his arm at elbow - greco collar tie (correct me if I am wrong.

by phil dunlap [QUOTE]Some of the tie ups we use are similar to greco tie ups I have seen especially our counter tie ups.[/QUOTE]

ok seems I we're getting somewhere...

so we have (non sportive) Greco, Thai and Burmese tie ups and clinch wreslting which all have very similar techniques. I did not know that Greco was so similar.

[QUOTE]Controlling the center of gravity.

This is a demonstration technique that I often do to illustrate the importance of controling your opponants pelvic area with a low clinch such as head to chest. have someone a good bit larger than you stand with his arms folded, feet wide and a slight bend in his knees. Place both your hands on his shoulders and tell him to not let you move him. If he is indeed much bigger or stronger than you he may very well push you around. Now try the same thing again only this time place your hands on your partners hips. You will now find it very easy to shove him around. Pushing on the hips not only gives you the advantage of pushing downhill but also negates the strength of the upper body.

"To control the pelvis is to control the center of gravity and to control the center of gravity is to control the man."

From: Phil Dunlap

Owen

It's great to have someone contributing ideas and concepts to this thread. From your Technique descriptions I am thinking you have a bachground in Greco Roman. I am a big fan of some of their tieups and takedowns I have worked out with several world class GR guys and can say their ability to tie someone up in a grappling situation is excellant and their takedowns very functional.

One clarification I need though on the hip pushing Is how do you deal with the elbow flashing on the downward diagonal. The question is a bit of a mind ream as your opponent would need the skill to execute also on the push how do you handle an attempt to break the clinch[/QUOTE]


Very nice stuff. interesting.

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#135320 - 09/15/04 02:37 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
1st Round KO Offline
Veteran

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 1497
Loc: New York City, USA
jkogas...my apologies for not explaining step by step the process of how pucnhes lead to knees...i thought it was obvious that the 2 were linked by a clinch, expecially since i made the reference to grabbing your opponents head.

if you were confused then please accept my sincerest regrets.

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#135321 - 09/15/04 04:57 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10813
Loc: North Carolina
Hi guys --

I'm VERY confused at the moment, but that's primarily because I'm taking some strong muscle relaxers to help my tendonitis.

Forgive me if I don't come back and reply to this thread until later or tomorrow.

Let's just start over again, shall we?

Thanks,

-John

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#135322 - 09/16/04 02:10 PM Re: A QUESTION FOR JKOGAS
Anonymous
Unregistered


It's nice to see all is well here on the JKD forum. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

- KiDoHae

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