[QUOTE]
For heavens sake calm down, you will get your blood pressure through the roof going
on like that. Chill out, take an E or something. (Only joking on that last bit !!
Although ???)
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm, I guess you're trying to provoke me. I'm annoyed because I'm trying to give you another point of view - but you don't want to see it... Instead of acknowleding that there can be an alternative truth you make fun of me:

[QUOTE]
Strange don't you think, that everything which has been quoted as coming from PD,
you claim has been either "grossly misrepresented or alternatively just
misrepresented. Odd that. You mean to say that you actually have bought into this
balderdash? I thought you were supposed to be an educated adult!
[/QUOTE]

Right, so, erm... I was there when the D*CK joke was told and tell you it was a joke. You then tell me that it wasn't and that I've bought into all this balderdash?? Erm, excuse me - I was there. It was a joke.

I CANNOT understand you.

I give you the truth as I EXPERIENCED it and you tell me I'm wrong?!!!? Things have been posted out of context and I'm trying to give the alternative view.

[QUOTE]
Also, we have been led to believe that Bushido was the most advanced and effective
form of MA going. Are you telling be that there is no scientific basis for its
development? All the other MA's I have come across openly admit to such a basis, but
you actually deny it. What do you think body mechanics is? Goats cheese?
[/QUOTE]

Again, you make fun of me. I'm trying to represent the other view point - but you won't listen, you won't admit that it's possible that there is another point of view.

You want all the answers from Bushido but you won't give anything in return. Go and join for six months... Then post and flame as much as you like.

Personnally I like the idea of an undercover cop doing Bushido, it would clear up a lot of the paranoia.

Incidentally, Bushido discourages teaching kids! And anyone who is under 16 is not encouraged to come to seminars - and they can only do one grading a year. You cannot take a black belt grading until you are 16. Unlike other MA where you can have 2nd Blackbelts who are 12 years old!


AND PLEASE could you learn how to use an apostrophe? There is NO APOSTROPHE in plurals!!!!

I DO have concerns within Bushido - there ARE areas that I have doubts about. And that's why I started posting here. I DO NOT have any particular close ties with the school.
But instead of being able to share my concerns I've ended up fighting for the truth as I see it.

Although I have concerns - you won't acknowledge that some of what has been said on this site is paranoia.

I have doubts about some of the prices, about the keeness to attend all the seminars.

But I have no doubts about my teacher, nor about the modern day zen (I don't think it is all authored by PD - incidentallY).
The karate teaching is excellent. The sword sessions I have seen were awesome.
PD is a fantastic martial artist, but I think he is just a man... Subject to the same frailties, insecurities and frustrations as the rest of us.

Along the line, Bushido became corporistic. The same thing happens in industry - a company reaches a certain size and it has to sustain its growth. Perhaps in a few years the prices will get cheaper... Perhaps they'll become more expensive! Who knows.

I really must make this my last post. I'm not going to read this any more. It's too one-sided.

Goodbye and good luck in your hunt for the truth... But be honest - make sure you ARE searching for the truth, and when you find it - BE HONEST.

Copyright White Mask 2005
(Not registered at the British Library!)

Mr Vigerous.

Please allow us the time to get this sorted out. We seem to be getting very close to the
reality of this situation. What we ourselves can not achieve maybe others can from a different direction. I.e., investigative journalism or UC police. We need to be afforded this opportunity to establish the truth of the matter. Should we be wrong I will be the first one to stand up on this thread (or any other you care to name) and admit that I am and was wrong. But, until that time comes, please bear with the rest of us and see what transpires, as my personal belief is that we are all (including you) getting 'uncomfortably near to the truth'.

I take it that you are not a member of B.A.M.A. ? I certainly hope so, as I along with others would be in fear for your well-being should you be so.

Very best wishes.

MC.

liquidthoughtz

I'm posting my freinds email address for you to contact me on. He will forward any info you care to divilge or share. I live about 200 miles ditant from him, but I can access the area if needed in about 2 hours drive. (Arn't I a naughty boy) Quick motoring in this day and age Eh? Not like 79!!

In point of fact we use a WAN system because we work very closly together with many others in our indiustry and it suits our porpoise or any other aquatic animal you care to name. LOL, to work this way.

He himself has no interst in MA, despite my encourageing him for many years. He just fails to see any benefit. so horses for courses I suppose. In saying that he's never been in any bother, so he has his head screwed on the right way around.
Give me a shout.

MC.

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 01-31-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Midnightcrawler (edited 02-01-2005).]

nightcrawler.

no analyst - just thought i would remind people of what has come out so far in this MASSIVE thread!!! most of it is just cut and pasted from other peoples posts.

notice that NO ONE from bushido has stepped up to refute or deney anything that is in that summary. Which is worrying - keep training with all this knowledge from ex high ranking member! you must have a screw loose .......

I have nothing against Bushido members, but the constant, 'its great, MAster Chusan is fantastic, (fingers in ears) Im not listening ....' etc is just getting old.

IF we are all so Wrong then fight your corner, GIVE US some history, give us some background, give us some details! the worst it can do is shut us up!

cheers

I seriously doubt whether this debate can go any further. Lets be honest here when potential new members come to this forum, this is the thread right at the top and this is probably the thread people judge the whole site on (re the no of replies). This really has turned into a witch hunt, I agree the marketing structure of BAMA seems questionable re the fees etc, but ex members have viewed their feelings and current members have viewed theirs. End of story.
The only things I can presume will be discussed in the future are further tales of how ex-members feel ripped off. Existing members of BAMA probably would not post here, why try to defend their style after judging how previous pro BAMA contributors have been treated.
At the end of the day this thread has served its purpose. It has given potential new students of BAMA something to think about.
I have no links to BAMA, I know nothing of the style other than what has been posted here, I originally come from the area where BAMA has its headquarters and ill be honest ive never even heard of them before this thread.

I definately don't think this thread should close. People clearly are getting a lot out of it. Also i have more stuff by PD to post, which does actually defend the school, and shows what a huge difference the school has had on people's lives.

I also have some corrections to make to middleway's ummary of the thread. There are some inaccuracies, but nothing really which would detract from the main point.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by middleway:
Reality: The philosophy is all taught from Minidisc recordings of Master Chusan serenely and hypnotically feeding images and philosophical viewpoints into the listeners ears, and is always listened to privately on headphones by the student. They are referred to as 'pod tapes'. The student is encouraged not to make too many notes (which incidentally is the 'owl' working from the '7 animals') but to let it sink into a subconscious level where it will be more instinctively useful (the 'eagle').[/QUOTE]
Although i'm honoured to be quoted(!) i should add that this basis of zen teaching is also supplemented by private instruction from the sensei. I should also add the MD tapes are closely guarded secrets of the school, and great care is taken over their security at all time. I think it costs £5 to listen to each at specially registered dojos, not all of them have the tapes available

[QUOTE]• It tries to base its philosophy on samari concepts of honor, claiming that the samurai code was very prevalent. Recognized japanese history suggests that the concept of Bushido was only employed by certain classes of the Bushi, Most bushi prior to the tokugawa shogunate were extremely efficient but savage professional soldiers, with no ethical code in battle..[/QUOTE]
although the school is called Bushido, the code it employs is different from the actual samurai used. I think the school would claim it is the deep philosophical roots which are inherited from Japan. I don't think the physical techniques are actually attributed to master usaka, that is probably just assumed. I heard that PD learnt all the MA before he ever went to Japan

[QUOTE]
• Sensei’s and students have been filmed by Mr Dalane crying due to psychological upsets.
• MR Dalane has filmed himself badly beating a student that ‘caught’ him with a good shot.

[/QUOTE]
I haven't seen this on the thread. More detail please? This sounds very ominous...
[QUOTE]
• Labeling and attribute awareness is a heavy factor in the school – with students being demeaned for their points of personality failure and given a badge of one of the 7 animals.
[/QUOTE]
This is a definate misunderstanding of what has been said on this thread. The 7 animals are characteristics which we all possess. Some have certain characteristics more than others. The aim is to get them all 'balanced'. I have never heard the 7 animals concepts being used for the purposes of labelling. Anyway this is meant to be an 'advanced' concept, and should not be listened to by low grades for risk of misunderstanding. (except perhaps if they pay £200 for an advanced weekend!)
[QUOTE]
• Mr dalane claims the title of Shogun and his top students retainers.
[/QUOTE] (Shugosan is now a master, and therefore is no longer a retainer.)
[QUOTE]
• Mr dalane trained in Stage Hypnotism
• Mr Dalane has worked with NLP and has been registered as a practitioner.
[/QUOTE]
I'm not so sure this has been clearly established. A lot of the stuff i have little knowledge about, and is based on heresay (which most of it i DO believe), but this above point may have been confused with http://www.opencollege.info/qualifications.html which seems to simply be a BAMA member in birmingham advertising an entirely seperate hypnosis enterprise, and listing an affiliation with BAMA as a qualification, not an endorsement.
[QUOTE]
• Mr Dalane sells a self written book to his students for £60.00 and rents Pod tapes for anything from £25 - £50.[/QUOTE]

as i said pod tapes are £5 to listen to them in the confines of the dojo. I am unaware of any costing as much as £50, but if that is the case please enlighten me.

[QUOTE]
• If you leave BAMA your old friends are not allowed to talk to you. [/QUOTE]

I don't think this is an official rule, a la Jehovah's witnesses. It is probably a result of social pressure and perceptions that those who have left are traitors. You could say PD has implemented them, on the other hand it could just be the dogged faithfullness of those who remain in BAMA.

[QUOTE] • PD has threatened many of his higher grades into silence about various subjects. [/QUOTE]

Again not sure where this has come from. If they were threatened into silence, we wouldn't have heard about it!? Was there an ex-high grade posting on this topic? Perhaps i missed that one.

[QUOTE] • MR Dalane is not recognized by ANY martial arts association, governing body or organization outside of his own. [/QUOTE]
Just to add that BAMA probably see this fact as a critisism of the entire MA world. They would claim it is too commercial and doesn't teach the true way. They are more concerned with whether THEIR govening body recognises OTHER MA. Which of course it doesn't because it claims they're all rubbish!
[QUOTE]
• Bushido was made up after 1979, with no links whatsoever to Japan, Bushido etc
[/QUOTE]
One website claims it was set up in 1971. Perhaps this was when PD formed his franchise ZZK dojo. 1979 was when they broke away and formed Bushido Karate. So that is true. 1990 is when the governing body and copyrights of BAMA was founded.
[QUOTE]
• NONE of the teachers in BAMA have any qualification to teach Zen, philosophy, or social behavior skills, and they do not appear to be insured. They use disclaimers to get around possible injury.
[/QUOTE]
All qualifications are internal. They don't even recognise other govening bodies because it thinks they're no good. But that is not illegal afterall. Also many professions are completely unregulated and anyone can practice. I'm sure anyone could set up a acupuncture centre, or a herbalist. Not like, for instance, the medical or dental professions which have a governing body and require by law fitness to practice.

Just a few minor points, but otherwise a good summary of what has preceeded!

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 02-01-2005).]

[This message has been edited by Adonai (edited 02-01-2005).]

Jonrobbie,
i am in Florida, so i dont know how much use id be with the media; but, i would be willing to do what i could.

i wonder....
the x-members that post here...
how much time has elapsed since u were actual members? i wonder if things have changed over the course of years? and, just trying to be fair, have they changed for the better?

that seems to be something i am unclear of...is there a timeline of things that we have been discussing that are what we would deem negative? and if so, have they changed for the better, or stayed the same?

organizations are like people, they learn as time goes by, if they think it necessary for survival.
Kel

Here's another couple of email extracts from Pete Delane himself.


[QUOTE]
Students will [soon] be able to pick the subject they want to specialise in! NO OTHER SCHOOL OFFERS THAT!
IN JANUARY [2003] A NEW SET OF SENSEIS WILL BE JOINING THE DELANE ACADEMY PAY ROLL.
A NEW FULL TIME KATA SENSEI.
THE TEA MASTER WILL BE JOINING THE TEAM.
AND KENSUNISAN WILL BEGINNING TO GO ON NATIONAL TOURS.
THE BOOK ABOUT DRAYU REETHORE ( OUR BIBLE, OUR ZEN STORY ) WILL ALSO BE GOING ON TOUR.
I PROMISED YOU THE BEST STANDARD OF TUITION IN THE WORLD. WE ARE GETTING THERE!
REMEMBER ALL THESE GREAT MEN JOINED ME AS BEGINNERS, JUST LIKE YOU!
WHAT GREAT MEN CAN WE BUILD TOGETHER.
ARE YOU A FUTURE GREAT MAN OF THIS GREAT SCHOOL?
I HOPE SO!
LOOK INTO THESE EYES AND SEE WHAT IT TAKES TO BE GREAT!
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] Why did I start this school?
It was because once I was a long haired musician living the life of a long haired musician.
Then I met a man who cared enough to want to share a vision, and I liked his vision!
He became what I needed, and I am now a result of that meeting.
I am what he and I created together, a happy being in harmony with the way.
What I want to teach is that people all over the world, whatever colour, shape or culture, all have their own rhythm
yet all move to the same heart beat. Our heart beat ties us all together.
We need to hear our heart beat.
If we listen more to our heart beat we may be able to hear and feel the existence of others.
Perhaps then the world would be a better place, and I could be a better person, I try.
DONT GIVE IN TO YOUR FEARS, OR YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO TALK TO YOUR HEART.
COURAGE TO BE TRUE TO THE RHYTHM OF YOUR HEART AND TO MATCH IT TO THE RHYTHM OF THE UNIVERSE, IS THE WAY TO INNER HARMONY.
HERE IN THIS SCHOOL I TRY TO TEACH, DISCIPLINE, COURAGE, HONOUR, AND THE ABILITY TO LOVE ALL THINGS THAT LOVE LIFE ITSELF.
LIFE WAS THE GIFT, WISDOM THE REWARD.
REMEMBER, WE ALL MAKE THE REAPER LAUGH...........WHY? ....BECAUSE WE MAKE PLANS!
HOW HE MUST LAUGH.
DO NOT PLOT, SCHEME...........JUST BE..................BE WHAT?
ALIVE...................AND KNOW IT.
WELCOME TO OUR SCHOOL. LET US TOGETHER MAKE A DIFFERENCE.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hunterkell:
Jonrobbie,
i am in Florida, so i dont know how much use id be with the media; but, i would be willing to do what i could.

i wonder....
the x-members that post here...
how much time has elapsed since u were actual members? i wonder if things have changed over the course of years? and, just trying to be fair, have they changed for the better?

that seems to be something i am unclear of...is there a timeline of things that we have been discussing that are what we would deem negative? and if so, have they changed for the better, or stayed the same?

organizations are like people, they learn as time goes by, if they think it necessary for survival.
Kel[/QUOTE]

My experience with the school ended January 2005, when I took the entire thread (8 pages at the time) to my sensei to get clarification and peace of mind re the worries voiced. Sadly the ambiguity of the answers failed to convince me to stay. My sen. did say that PD was v. aware of this discussion, but had instructed students and teachers of all grades to ignore it and not get involved- quite simply I think he is just going to tough this oune out and replace the disulusioned (spelling? :-) ) with new recruits. Like Barnam said there's one born every minute....(me included until a month ago- Doh!)