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#135163 - 08/25/04 07:30 PM Ranges or games
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
I tend to think of empty hand fighting as existing as three separate (although connected in some ways) "games". You could also look at them as ranges.

For me these are: stand-up, clinch and ground (or for ranges; long, close and ground).

What are your thoughts regarding these?


-John

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#135164 - 08/25/04 08:23 PM Re: Ranges or games
Raul Perez Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/08/02
Posts: 2805
Loc: Lake Ronkonkoma, NY, USA
Hi John,

I can see how you come up with your three ranges (stand up, clinch, ground). But in my opinion I feel it is very important to differentiate between the Kicking and Punching ranges, especially with beginners. Many times while doing light contact sparring and full contact sparring with the new bloods I have found that many tend to punch when they are out of range (Kicking Range) and try to kick (side kick, back leg front kick) while in punching distance which results in little power being generated. Because of this I discuss the game as it relates to 4 areas... Kicking, Punching, Clinch/Trapping, and Ground Grappling in that order(noting that you can't go to one range without going through the other) . This way it is easier to transfer the knowledge of WHEN to kick, WHEN to punch, WHEN to knee/elbow/throw, and WHEN to grapple.

But then again it is just a training preference.

My best,

Raul

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#135165 - 08/25/04 11:29 PM Re: Ranges or games
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:
I tend to think of empty hand fighting as existing as three separate (although connected in some ways) "games". You could also look at them as ranges.

For me these are: stand-up, clinch and ground (or for ranges; long, close and ground).

What are your thoughts regarding these?


-John
[/QUOTE]

IMHO, the flawless transition from one range to the next to the next to the next is one 'game' ... all inclusive of the '3 ranges'.

Each range has its strengths and weaknesses, and each incorporates different kinds of movement. Understanding the effective application of each adds to the depth and skill level of ones total 'game'.

But thats just me .... I can see the perspective of it being 3 different games as well ... for ease of gaining depth in knowledge and skill of each range. In the end, it all ties together . . .

Humbly,

Edit: Wanted to add ... to some of us of course ... there is no 'end' ... only a constant evolution !

Train ON [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


[This message has been edited by Italian Monk (edited 08-25-2004).]

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#135166 - 08/26/04 05:54 AM Re: Ranges or games
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Rual --

I understand where you're coming from. However for me, punching and kicking ranges still exist within the "game" of stand-up. I just call those long and middle distances. I have a preference not to use "tool specific" names because of the restrictions that are automatically placed on them when doing so.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Italian Monk:
IMHO, the flawless transition from one range to the next to the next to the next is one 'game' ... all inclusive of the '3 ranges'.
[/QUOTE]

That 'one game' you refer to is JKD. However, I'm not always talking about the seamless flow when speaking of the games. I understand the necessity of that flow, but also of the development and at times, the isolation of each individual game to further work on each.

Certainly, flow is important -- the ability to adapt to our opponent and each situation thrust upon us. But for this to occur, we have to have game developed within each of those three primary areas.


-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-26-2004).]

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#135167 - 08/26/04 08:43 AM Re: Ranges or games
Anonymous
Unregistered


I actually ad 2 other ranges to the mix. In teaching self defense I teach 5 "games" or ranges. They start with the most theoretical and move closer as you progress from 5 to 1. 5, the 5th range is Mind, making choices about where you go and with whom. 4th deals with awareness, sight hearing and voice. If I see or hear trouble, head the other way. use posture and voice to not appear as a good target. 3rd, kicking/punching. 2nd clinch or vertical grappling and 1 on the ground.
Hopefully if I use 5 and 4 well I dont have to prgress to the others.

mark

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 08-26-2004).]

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#135168 - 08/26/04 12:35 PM Re: Ranges or games
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:



That 'one game' you refer to is JKD. However, I'm not always talking about the seamless flow when speaking of the games. I understand the necessity of that flow, but also of the development and at times, the isolation of each individual game to further work on each.

Certainly, flow is important -- the ability to adapt to our opponent and each situation thrust upon us. But for this to occur, we have to have game developed within each of those three primary areas.


-John


[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 08-26-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Totally agree, as I stated above ..."I can see the perspective of it being 3 different games as well ... for ease of gaining depth in knowledge and skill of each range. In the end, it all ties together . . ."

Humbly,

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#135169 - 08/26/04 12:41 PM Re: Ranges or games
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:
I actually ad 2 other ranges to the mix. In teaching self defense I teach 5 "games" or ranges. They start with the most theoretical and move closer as you progress from 5 to 1. 5, the 5th range is Mind, making choices about where you go and with whom. 4th deals with awareness, sight hearing and voice. If I see or hear trouble, head the other way. use posture and voice to not appear as a good target. 3rd, kicking/punching. 2nd clinch or vertical grappling and 1 on the ground.
Hopefully if I use 5 and 4 well I dont have to prgress to the others.

mark

[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 08-26-2004).]
[/QUOTE]

Nice. I think we all need to apply awareness and mindset in our 'game'. I suppose we all have different ways of doing such.

I tend to tie the awareness and mindset to a way of life and is a constant ... and therefore contributes greatly specifically when I am in the 'ranges or games'.

And I agree, if you have the means to cut off/stop a confrontation before it takes place ... by all means.

Nice thread.

Humbly,



[This message has been edited by Italian Monk (edited 08-26-2004).]

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