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#135039 - 08/15/04 07:59 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Often it is little more than technique collecting. However, the techniques must meet certain requirements. It must be flexible, unpredictable, economical, fluid, and most importantly, it must be tested against resisting opponents to prove its effeectiveness.

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#135040 - 08/15/04 08:09 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Technique collection is an interesting thing. I see a distinction between technique collection and functional technical ability. What's the difference you may ask? The concept of daily decrease has everything to do with it.

I'll give you some examples.

Guy number one:
*Learns 20 escapes from the mount. He's (too) busy learning as many escapes as possible. Knowing MORE is all that is important to him. As a result, he doesn't have any time to actually TRAIN them in an alive manner. He's too busy assembling his "collection" of mount escapes to develop skill at them (training against resistance during drilling and sparring).

Guy number two:
*Learns only 3 escapes from the mount, but can chain them together into combinations based upon his opponent's resistance.

Because he's only learned 3 escapes, he's got plenty of time to drill them until they become second nature. He becomes HIGHLY skilled as a result and consequently, not many people can hold him down in the mount position for very long, if at all.

Look at some differences between the two.

*Guy number one can "show" you his twenty (and counting) escapes from the mount. When the time comes to perform though, he has a hard time and his technique falls apart because of the limited amount of time devoted to actually TRAINING each one (there are after all, only so many hours in a day).

*Guy number 2 can't show you a whole lot of mount escape "techniques", but he can damned sure get OUT of the mount when an opponent gets it on him.

And that's the difference between mere "collection" and training. There's a difference between "knowledge" and "knowing".

This is a great example of what daily decrease is all about. I "am" guy number two. I know three basic escapes and a few variations of them. But, I can get out of the position by chaining each of the three together based upon what my opponent does.

Do I want to know "more" techniques? Perhaps in time, after I've mastered the basics to a high degree, I'll add a few more basics in. Mastery is nothing but the skilled execution of the basics after all.

That approach is ANTI technique collection. Simplicity of training and daily decrease facilitate skill development in the modern fighter. There's just no NEED to know a lot of techniques. There's only a need to know a few and to MASTER them.

Then you're not the jack of all trades, master of none.


Good post by the way.


-John

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#135041 - 08/15/04 10:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas:

Excellent answer! By giving examples you've answered my question without actually needing to say that your guy #2. From what I've seen on your site, and heard you say, it sounds like you have a top notch school.

Bravo.


Chen Zen:

Congrats on the new forum and moderator position. I was lost for a little while, because I couldn't find this discussion thread in the MA talk. Nice suggestion to open a new forum and again congrats on your new position as moderator.


About my answer to the discussion. What do you guys think about that definition? Is it hitting the nail on the head, or am I missing something. I only have a limited knowlege of JKD, thats why I want to know if my grasp of JKD is correct or not.

[This message has been edited by OklahomasGreg (edited 08-15-2004).]

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#135042 - 08/15/04 11:10 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Chen Zen Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 02/09/03
Posts: 7043
Loc: Ms
Greg, thanks. I would say that you were right in saying its a little of both, philosophy and style. But the style is ever changing so its not a set system. Virtually every practitioners JKD is different.

John, excellent work. I see other guys doing kata with 30 to 50 techniques and thinking to myself, "how could you sit and learn all those movements in all those kata" ? I use about 10 different hand strikes, about four kicks, and now Im covering the grappling. This even is excessive to other JKD practitioners Ive met. I have a deep seeded desire for variety but as soon as Ive learned them Ive moved on to something else. Im now at the same set Ive been at for about four years.

You also made a good point about basics. Often times the outcome of training, the "BB", becomes the focus instead of the training itself. Technique wise you could learn everything you need to know about fighting ina tradtional atmosphere. Its simply refining the basics, making them your own, thats how you become a master.

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#135043 - 08/16/04 01:23 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


So, then I guess that my training in stances is almost pointless then. I'm constantly practicing my stances and forms, but I would never use the blocks or stances that I practice in a fight, uless it was just an idiot that I was fighting. I see that building leg strength in stances is a plus, but other than that, it seems pointless to practice a deep front stance and a low block.

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#135044 - 08/16/04 07:31 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


[QUOTE]Originally posted by JKogas:

Don't know if I answered this particular question for you or not. Could you define what you mean by "traditional"?


-John
[/QUOTE]

John,

Thanks for asking that. Like everyhting else, I guess, what I percieve as "traditional" is really only what I percieve, this may or may not even be true for most people. Those of us who have been praticing MAs for some time understand that as you progress you conquer your demons one-by-one. And deal with things that utliamtely hinder you not just as a "fighter" but as a person. They are, after all, one and the same.

You basically answered the question. As you did not mention it, am I correct in assuming that meditative practice and breathing are not a part of improving performance on any level? Not everyone places stock in these methods. I am making no judgement one way or the other.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]



[This message has been edited by KiDoHae (edited 08-16-2004).]

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#135045 - 08/16/04 06:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

John,

Thanks for asking that. Like everyhting else, I guess, what I percieve as "traditional" is really only what I percieve, this may or may not even be true for most people. Those of us who have been praticing MAs for some time understand that as you progress you conquer your demons one-by-one. And deal with things that utliamtely hinder you not just as a "fighter" but as a person. They are, after all, one and the same.
[/QUOTE]

Traditional is pretty much anything rigid and fixed. Wouldn’t you say? The dictionary defines traditional as: A mode of thought or behavior followed by a people continuously from generation to generation; a custom or usage.

Thus, nearly everything can be “traditional”. Tradition however, is often followed blindly and without critical thought. I’m naturally contemptuous of such a thing.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

You basically answered the question. As you did not mention it, am I correct in assuming that meditative practice and breathing are not a part of improving performance on any level? Not everyone places stock in these methods. I am making no judgement one way or the other.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]


[/QUOTE]

Meditation and breathing can be good things I believe, depending. I like to practice breathing, but in a challenging way. I like to hinder my breathing so that I learn to breath under duress and maintain composure. One method of doing this is to lie on one’s back and stretch your legs back over your head until your toes touch or nearly touch the floor atop your head. Stay in such a position for as long as possible. That’s an excellent breathing exercise and one that I employ as part of my warm up.


-John

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#135046 - 08/16/04 07:28 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Wow such interesting replies to my topic!
I guess my entire point was that those who train and study JKD as a system are missing the basic fundamental nature of JKD. That people who teach JKD as a system are misleading. No offense to those who teach it as a philosophy and not a style. Taking a move or combination and saying this is JKD is just not what it's all about. The abandonment of style, the integration of everything one "knows" into a body of knowledge and experience that transends the traditional beliefs and structures, creating something that is nothing, out of everything. Thank you for your replies it calms some of my worries about those who come into my school and say I trained with a JKD master and then watch them get all mixed up because they are still stuck in form and tradition. I study traditional Shaolin Chuan Fa Kung Fu but one of the things we drill into our students is that it doesn't matter which strike you throw when confronted as long as something effective comes out. It's not about style, but about thought, or better yet, the abandonment of thought and the acceptance of instinct, more so, taking the techniques you've been taught and ingraingin them into your being through training so that when the time comes, you are more than ready and don't need to think about your reaction.

On another note, Stance work is effective and useful, not only building leg strength but balance and such. I live in Chicago, it gets real snowy and I cannot tell you how many times i have slipped on the ice and landed in a stance, completely by instinct. Or jumped and misread the distance and caught myself in a stance. Once stances are ingrained, you notice you take them often, how many times have you had to move something heavy and it slipped, you caught it because your body dropped into a low stance. I seem to do this often, but maybe it's just me. Even menial things like not falling on your *** when your chair rolls out from under you and landing in a horse instead. Maybe i'm just clumsy sometimes and my stance3s help me. I don't know.

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#135047 - 09/07/04 11:15 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


The term "Jeet kune do" itself implies a system[AKA Wayv of the Intercepting Fist].Bruce lee had a system as much as he didn't like to admit it. He taught specific techniques and methods based on many systems, primairly Wing chun, Boxing, fencing[whithout the weapons of course]and taekwondo.
Even though he taught people to find what works for them he still taught people specific mrthods so JKD really is a philosophy and system at the same time like most other martial arts.

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#135048 - 09/07/04 09:16 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
JKD is the system of no system.

To understand this, realize that the notion of 'styles' is bullshit. A style is but a slice of reality.

A style implies a beginning and an end. A style is defined as much by what it isn't as what it is. A style has a beginning and an end. Otherwise it wouldn't BE a style as it would have no way of comparing itself against other styles. In other words, there would have to be differences between a style and another style. If there are no differences, then there are no styles. In reality, there ARE no differences because, we only have two arms and two legs. There are only so many ways of hitting, joint locking and just little infinitesimal variations between them.

JKD is different for everyone. This main idea is, JKD cannot be taught, only discovered. It's a process and not a product. A teacher simply cannot teach you how to be you -- only you can do that. He can show you HOW to discover this and ultimately thats what a good coach will do.

I can show you technique. I can coach that technique and provide the environment for you to train it, but ultimately whether it becomes something you absorb or reject is up to you. However, JKD is NOT ABOUT specific techniques, because, anything that WORKS FOR YOU is a JKD technique. The key being, that YOU can make it work. Lee said after all that, "efficiency is anything that scores".

Lee realized that most fighting arts try to paint a picture of fighting as some sort of rocket science. He understood that fighting is just a natural act that becomes contrived and made rigid, pouring this natural state into a mold of what we think and believe fighting "should be like". When this happens it becomes contrived instead of natural. This is what most formal styles of martial arts become -- contrived and unnatural.

Lee sought to do the opposite and free his followers from forms, dead patterns and other contrived molds. He wanted them to just experience the "what is" of fighting and to develop themselves as fighters accordingly.

Sure we know that there are right ways of doing things and wrong ways of doing things. We know this because we have engaged in the "what is" of fighting with resisting, alive, opponents. We have seen and experienced firsthand the truth in combat. And this is what JKD is all about. And it's also why it is different for each individual, because truthfully no two people are never going to fight the same way. So is there really a system, or is there not?

...but what do I know....we're all just children along the path .


-John

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-07-2004).]

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