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#135029 - 08/13/04 09:45 PM JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


You know, i have heard and seen so many people who claim to study JKD as a style. Is'nt JKD more of a philosophy, the abandoment of a system, using what works effectively, no matter what system it came from. Am I wrong to think that JKD should not be considered a system in and of itself, but more of a philosophy that should be followed by the practitioner? How you you rely on a system that is all about abandoning a system. Don't get me wrong I love the concept of it, the ideals behind it, everything about it, I just have problems calling JKD a system, and I'm not sure that Bruce Lee would disagree with me. Granted it had to be named a system for recognition, but i believe that that was the only reason it became a system. I really am interested in what the forum members have to say about this and I eagerly await replies, but please keep it serious, I think this is a very big issue in the MA world and very open to debate.

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#135030 - 08/13/04 10:08 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
How about this quote from Lee himself:


[QUOTE]

On JKD not being a style

I have not invented a "new style," composite, modified or otherwise that is set within distinct form as apart from "this" method or "that" method. On the contrary, I hope to free my followers from clinging to styles, patterns, or molds. Remember that Jeet Kune Do is merely a name used, a mirror in which to see "ourselves". . . Jeet Kune Do is not an organized institution that one can be a member of. Either you understand or you don't, and that is that.

...Finally, a Jeet Kune Do man who says Jeet Kune Do is exclusively Jeet Kune Do is simply not with it. He is still hung up on his self-closing resistance, in this case anchored down to reactionary pattern, and naturally is still bound by another modified pattern and can move within its limits. He has not digested the simple fact that truth exists outside all molds; pattern and awareness is never exclusive.

Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back.
[/QUOTE]


I think that sums it all up. If the creator says JKD isn't a style, then it's not a style.

-John

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#135031 - 08/14/04 02:53 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


You guys are both right. Bruce Lee himself said: "Learning Jeet Kune Do is not a matter of seeking knowledge or accumulating stylized pattern, but discovering the cause of ignorance" - Tao of Jeet Kune Do, Bruce Lee

JKD is whatever you make of it, what ever you bring to it. Eg. I have done Karate and ninjitsu,I am doing muay thai and Capoeira.

My "style" is taking the best from all my different experiences. Flexibility and fluint movements from Capoeira , channeling of power from Karate, pressure points and limb breaking techniques from ninjitsu, physical conditioning and strong kicks from muay thai. Taking all this and forming my own JKD, my own "style".

I think people who refers to JKD as a style has "sheep mentality" of doing this when that happens etc. which goes totally against Bruce Lee's philosophy of style of no style, beoming, as he puts it, autonomous robots and not self aware. I better stop here, coz I can keep going for ages. Best of luck to you fellow martial artists. May you have the courage to change what you can and the strength to accept the things you cannot
Ax

- Carlo

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#135032 - 08/14/04 03:37 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


JKogas:

I checked out your homepage, listed under your profile. I notice that you teach JKD. Since I can't figure another way to ask this, what do you teach? Or, what might one of your class workouts consist of (minus warm up)?

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#135033 - 08/14/04 09:50 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
What we "teach" are the three ranges of stand-up fighting (formerly kicking and punching ranges), clinch fighting (formerly "trapping" range) and ground fighting (formerly "ground" fighting, oddly enough, lol) as is normally taught within most JKD curriculums.

We have found through experience, that certain delivery systems work more efficiently to train these ranges than do others.

For us these are: (mind you, we use the more useful elements from these systems)

*Stand-up: Western boxing, muay Thai and savate.

*Clinch: Greco-Roman and freestyle wrestling, muay Thai and elements of judo.

*Ground: Brazilian jiu-jitsu (almost entirely) along with western wrestling and catch-as-catch-can.

*Weapons: Stick fighting and empty hand knife/blunt instrument defenses.

That answers the technical question about 'what' we train, but I'd like to also give a little insight into 'how' we train as well.

There are several ways in which we might structure our classes. Regardless, you can guarantee that you'll be training (in an alive manner) to deal with punching, clinching and ground fighting. Sometimes (depending on the class) we will isolate ranges to work certain things more. In other words, just training stand-up, just training the clinch or the ground.

For example, you may come in and work on nothing but punching and kicking (again, the punching of western boxing and the kicking of muay Thai and savate). Since we value having better "hand" skills than "foot" skills, we will isolate the boxing range during training more than the kicking.

But that depends as well. There are an infinite number of variables that you can apply to training and drilling, limited only by a coaches imagination. For example; sometimes when we're training a guys hand skills on the focus pads, he has to be able to defend both kicking and takedown attempts while he's working his combos. Mind you, that's just the stand-up training.

Sometimes we combine stand-up and clinch (to include takedowns from the clinch). A good example of this is, one man will attempt to do nothing but punch and maintain the stand-up range. His partner cannot punch, but CAN close the distance and try to tie-up/control the position in the clinch. If the guy gets good position, he can attempt a takedown. Of course, the guy who is just doing stand-up, can sprawl, etc., to defend the takedown. This is a great drill to develop the countering skills of BOTH men at the same time, while maintaining completely separate and antagonistic strategies.

Sometimes we will put it all together to include fighting for submission on the ground (to include strikes) after the takedown. This would occur more within our JKD '201' sessions.

The JKD 101 sessions might just teach the technical aspects (how to punch, how to kick, how to do a body lock or inside tie-up, etc) and would include some low-level drilling against resistance (going light). This session serves to groove mechanics. The 201 sessions offer more resistance and high-level drilling.

Where does it end? lol. The sky's the limit for us. Also it really should be said that, we aren't limited to what 'techniques' will use during our training sessions. In other words, we don't care about "where" they come from (as far as art is concerned), we only care about whether they are practicable and are high percentage. We don't care about theoretical techniques which can't be fully practiced with a resisting partner.


-John

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#135034 - 08/14/04 05:24 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John,

Do you rely on any "traditional" methods of teaching/training? And/or does your training aspire to the "do" aspects/virtues of traditional Asian training?

It is Jeet Kune "DO", this has always implied a "Way" of spiritual development on some level for the practitioner.

- KiDoHae [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

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#135035 - 08/14/04 06:02 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
Ultimately it's all about the underlying spiritual aspects. JKD is a vehicle for the destruction of the ego. When the ego has been destroyed, greater evolution of the character can be obtained, but not until such ego things have been worked through.

Hard training has a way of allowing a person to work through various fears and hang-ups regarding violence, etc. After a person has faced such things over time, they become less and less. As a person becomes less fearful, he/she becomes more at peace and as a result, less of a burden on society as a whole. Thus, not only is good hard training better for the ego (creating a healthier person), it's pro-social as well.

However.....some methods of training can actually reinforce a fragile ego and can make an insecure person even more paranoid and insecure, or at least, not benefit such a person in any meaningful way. I've seen this personally. I also see it played out all over the internet on a near daily basis.


-John

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#135036 - 08/14/04 06:07 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by KiDoHae:

Do you rely on any "traditional" methods of teaching/training?
[/QUOTE]


Don't know if I answered this particular question for you or not. Could you define what you mean by "traditional"?


-John

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#135037 - 08/14/04 09:22 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John

It is really cool that you train JKD. It is quite sad that it is not taught here in New Zealand. I mean I try to follow the instructions from the books I have, but it is always good to have someone helping you fine tune your technique which makes quite a big difference in setting a strong foundation to work from. My knowledge of JKD philosophy is through self study and I, eventhough have been doing martial arts, on and off, since I was 9, am still such a novice.
All the best


Ax

Buda

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#135038 - 08/15/04 07:39 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Your training sounds very intense, and useful. It sounds to me that JKD is, in it's own right, just a title given to the idea of MMA. Maybe that is a good answer to the topic discussion. JKD, philosophy or style. I think both would suffice as an adequate answer. It's both the philosophy of not anticipating or depending on one move, but it's also a style of MMA.

How do you acquire techniques that you teach? I'm not trying to be offensive in saying this, but, it sounds like collecting moves. How do you keep your training from falling into this category of simply collecting moves?

In any case, your class sounds excellent. Next time I'm in NC, I will be stopping by. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Respectfully,

Greg

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