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#135089 - 09/21/04 09:00 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
I think I gotta agree with the "test it" debate.

Take away what is useless.


Ok, I am training hard at something, I am already quite proficient at what I do but now I am being shown (maybe from a different instructer) something new, a new combo or technique. I will first learn the movements of that technique, I will go through these movements with my partner then I will drill them. My idea of a drill is taking only the chosen technique and sparring with it adding no other technique, developing timing and reflex for the chosen technique THEN I free spar with all my techniques.

now thats all well and good. But what if this new technique I am being shown seems to take a little time to get to grips withand we havnt even started drills or sparring yet? We've all been there, standing there in class or the gym and you're shown a technique that is so complicated and tricky that its dificult doing it even without any resistance! These techniques, in my opinion, should be removed from fighting arts and thrown in the bin forever! they have no place in fighting as they are too complicated and require way too much concentration to apply so therefore are a hinderance on the practitioner... unless you simply want to leartn them for the sake of cultural heritage etc then thats fine but for fighting KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Street fighting vs Sportive.

Ok, the wolf, you seem to be pretty confident in saying that street defense training is superior to sport. Ok I will try to seperate the two. Street defense is training in fouling techniques and teaching AWARENESS to the practitioner... in other words self defense training teaches the student to be aware of the possability of bites, gouges, multiple opponents and weapons. Ok, thats great stuff and I totally agree that sport training does not teach you to be aware of these risks. Now then, self defense teaches one to defend himself and fight if need be, sport training teaches one to defend himself and fight NOT if need be but because he must fight. Self defense practitioners are usually not the greatest of athletes... usually, in comparision to a sportive fighter the difference in cardio and muscle strength is almost always huge.

So now on one side you have a pure combative practitioner training in fouling technqiues and deadly moves and on the other side a pure sportive fighter trained highly in the art of fighting. Ok said about adrenal dump... lemme ask you a question The Wolf, who do you think will be more comfortable with the adrenalin dump? the sport guy or the combative self defense guy? out of teh two who do you think will be more than comfortable when fists and feet start flying?

The thing is, sport guys who dont train fouling will undoubtably learn the hard way that fouling is done outside the ring but what a sport guy has is fantastic phyisical condition, fight experience, experience in what works and what doesnt and expeirence with adrenalin dump... it doesnt take long to program the mind into accepting fouling techniques but it takes quite some time to gain fight experience and learn how to handle adrenalin dump.

Now the British SAS and Commando's always do EVERYTHING in a sparring way. They bin what is useless, they train in such a way that its very similar to the conditons of combat. I know this as my father was sergeant in a particular regiment of the British army, I have grown up around military and I myself have lived in a Barrack block because of it.

Of course infantry train in a non specific set way, they have foundations to work from but they are not that stupid to simply follow a set pattern. They know every situation is unique but they also know that certain tools work for certain situations but its knowing when and how to use them thats important. The same in a fight anywhere be it outside teh ring or not. If you train properlly and train in different scenarios you will then become familiar with the versatility of particular tools, i.e. the punch, kick, knee, elbow, bite etc etc and so on. Sport training is good training because it develops your ability to fight, now take sport training (without changing the way the training is conducted) add into it fouling technqiues... now you have a good self defense structure... fouling techniques and being aware of them are the base of self defense, by simply adding these into your already efficient training program you will benifit mor ethan the man who does not spar, train in a resiting manner and/or pressure test (as John puts it).

resistance - drills

free sparring

pressure testing (fighting)

without these elements in your training you will be on a long journey to become a good fighter.

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#135090 - 09/21/04 11:39 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote :"Well said. But you see, the notion of "weeding out" the pointless CRAP, is the crux of the debate between "THE WOLF" and I. How else is a person to weed out if one doesn't TEST what it is he's learning? What's the acid test for one's technique and one's ability if not through competition of one form or another against an alive, resisting partner or opponent? The sportive, athletic approach IS the "battlefield"!"


-John and MuayThai
I dont mean my questions to be silly or rude. I have alot of respect you guys and your approachs. I don't know if I would agree that it "IS the battlefield" maybe one of them. I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring.
As for weeding out the pointless crap. I know that you guys are serious and think deeply. I was wondering , what if after years of competeing or overcoming resisting opponants one might look back and find it pointless? Is it the testing of your abilities that is the point?
oldman


[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 09-21-2004).]

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#135091 - 09/21/04 01:04 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


I say the point is understanding yourself and your limitations. Knowing that you gave it your all, and did the best you could. KNowing that you learned something, and that you did something. You actually got off your butt and worked hard for something you really wanted, learned a skill you really desired, all fighting aspects aside, the point then becomes one of self recognition and actualization. To really know ones self.

"They" say that beginners are always training their bodies. Intermediate's are always perfecting their techniques through competition, To be truly advanced, everything is internal, and the entire idea of fighting for any reason becomes ludacris. The best master's fought until they found out what a master was. That's just what "they" say.

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#135092 - 09/21/04 05:06 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:


-John and MuayThai
I dont mean my questions to be silly or rude. I have alot of respect you guys and your approachs. I don't know if I would agree that it "IS the battlefield" maybe one of them. I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring.
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your input, Oldman.

Certainly, it’s just but “one battlefield” (competitive training) but it is UNQUESTIONABLY the one that most time can be spent within. And, considering that battlefield experience (one’s own, not someone else’s) is what’s MOST important with regard to developing not just the technical proficiency of the fighter, but the fighting mindset as well; much more actual fight time can be garnered by way of athletic, competitive training (regardless of whatever rules one chooses to engage with) than can be obtained by actually going out on the ‘street’, where the competition is questionable and the consequences are severe. I think this is common sense.

Before I go on, please note that there are differences (although slight) between what is a “ring sport” and what is a “delivery system”. Circumstances dictate tactics, but delivery systems do not change. That’s a fundamental truth that combat guys haven’t yet grasped about us “sport” guys….

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:

As for weeding out the pointless crap. I know that you guys are serious and think deeply. I was wondering , what if after years of competeing or overcoming resisting opponants one might look back and find it pointless?
[/QUOTE]

Considering the opposite, NEVER! I’ve really had too much fun (which is what it’s really all about) training athletically. I’ve gotten too many benefits (increased levels of performance ability, increased levels of fitness/conditioning, met so many really cool people with great, healthy attitudes). These things will stay with me for the rest of my years.

However, if I’d spent the next 25 years or so doing nothing but dead patterns, contrived partner drills using compliant resistance, I would without doubt, wonder if it was pointless! In fact, an honest person would KNOW it wasn’t worth it at all.

As mentioned, I’ve experienced BOTH methods of training. This is why I can speak on behalf of both. I’ve done scenario training, I’ve done “killing” techniques and it was ALL completely worthless when I went “tit for tat” against a sport guy who owned me in less than 30 seconds.

The dichotomy is stark between these methods. Consider that there are two fundamental methods of training:

1. Alive, athletic and non-compliant (sportive approach)
2. Dead, rigid, patterned and contrived (combat/street approach)

Now, after looking at it that way, it’s easy to see not only WHY I would chose the sportive approach, and why I would never wonder if it was worth it or not. After all, fighters FIGHT, they do not pretend to fight, as the vast majority of "street combat" guys do.

It’s just common sense.

Another thing that I’ve noticed about the “street/combat” crowd versus the “sport” crowd; Guys who spend all of their lives doing this combat training using scenario drills, contrived resistance, wearing camo fatigues, etc. all seem to walk through their lives (while armed to the TEETH) in paranoia – just waiting for the day when the attacker hiding in the bushes materializes. Of course that day may never come and even if it did, they’d likely not actually be prepared for it as a guy with a gun or a knife in your kidney rarely advertises himself coming. By the time it’s happened, it’s usually too late to do anything about OTHER THAN, hand over the wallet that he was asking for to BEGIN with (which is always the best option).

Consider also that these people are predators. They always come armed and often in numbers. Realistically speaking, there is NO martial art that will even the odds in that scenario!

It’s better to live life using the "self-preservation" mentality as opposed to the “self-defense” mindset. The former has you living in ways in which trouble is avoided (the PRO-active approach) while the latter has one “doing something ABOUT” trouble (the RE-active approach). Again it’s clear which is the most effective.

The “sport” guys (most of whom can certainly “handle themselves” on the street) all seem to have the healthier attitudes because their egos have been adjusted in positive ways. This is because they all KNOW that they can be beat at any given time. They know that there are people out there who deserve respect as opponents, because they’ve gone up against them. They learn that they aren’t necessarily a walking, talking “death machine” (although, I would put my hard earned money on them in a fight against a “camo wearing, kombat killer” ANY day of the week!)

This is directly OPPOSITE the ego-feeding ways of “pretend” training where, we always “win” (you know your roles in these drills ahead of time – there is no guessing as to whom the winner will be or what the outcome will be), we always “look good” while we “win” and we all leave the training center feeling like the worlds biggest bad-asses.

We’re all born into this world with our own unique hang-ups and insecurities. This is why so many of us venture forth to the martial arts. The sportive, athletic approach provides the greatest, most efficient vehicle of growing BEYOND those hang-ups and insecurities. This is demonstrated on a routine basis as I see guys personalities blossom after spending 6 months to a year (or more) training in this manner. Isn’t this truly the more “pro-social” method? Wouldn’t this be better than simply cranking out more insecure and paranoid, “death machines” and combat fatigue wearing “street fighters” using a fantasy-based martial arts method where nothing happens but the care and feeding of egos? I think that answer is obvious and again, is just common sense.

Again, it’s easy to see which approach would yield the healthiest attitudes.

We all mostly began our martial arts journey in an effort to develop ourselves as a functional, efficient fighter. We did this however for a variety of reasons. It would seem only sensible that, we can reach that state in the quickest time with optimal results by actually “doing” that for which we claim to train to BEGIN with – and that’s FIGHTING, not “pretending” to fight.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by oldman:


Is it the testing of your abilities that is the point?
[/QUOTE]

That's certainly ONE of them! We must, if we're sincerely seeking the truth, question everything we've been taught and told, as well as TEST each thing we learn rather than just accept them on faith. Besides, NO ONE ELSE has our best interests at heart other than we ourselves.


Thanks


-John Kogas

[This message has been edited by JKogas (edited 09-21-2004).]

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#135093 - 09/21/04 06:53 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
bjjchick Offline
Member

Registered: 12/08/03
Posts: 51
Loc: NC, USA
JKogas-

NICE job on the post. I do believe it is one of your best. Keep it up.

*bjjchick*

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#135094 - 09/21/04 06:56 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi gang

John you can be very articulate when you want to be....love your work...

I did want to make one point, I have also used various training methods...I hold ranks in muay thai and a freesytle karate and I'm now enjoying the freedom of a "street smart system".
Our main focus is drill work.....we do not spar....the theory is because sparring encourages long drawn out confrontations....and also teaches some bad habits relative to the street....ultimately we aim for a submission or bone break....quickly...as soon as the assailant throws a strike, we "swallow it" by entering and we diffuse the situation instantly by controlling the situation with either a choke/submission/etc...rather than keeping the space cushion associated with "stick and move" and ring sports...and trading blows.....There is plenty of pad work as we move through the ranks, that's mainly so that students will be able to read the strikes that come at them.....not because the aim is to create ring fighters....but to create muscle memory....
The more you see strikes coming at you....the more you will be able to read them.....and evade them

The point I'm trying to make is....while doing this constant pad work without any sparring.....I found out that I was "reprogrammed" the next time I did put the gloves on for sparring..(around 3 months later)....I found it hard to pull punches....mainly because the pad work is done in a full contact environment....I was loosing my sense of "control"....is this a bad thing??? I would much rather be programmed for a "full contact dynamic" in the street...not a touch contact dynamic...my distancing had improved...my evasion had improved......and all of this was because of pad work....not sparring!!!

This type of training is not for everyone.....I personally have no intention of ever fighting in a ring.....obviously, sparring is very necessary in the sporting world.....However,I can seen the negatives that sparring and sport for that matter has on various martial arts.....for example....when was the last time that you sparred and did not use the "stick and move" principal.....when was the last time you sparred with open hands.....when was the last time you sparred someone who was not using the same rules as you.....when was the last time you sparred without a time limit..... I've never seen a street fight last more that 15 seconds!!! hmmmm food for thought.....and can I also say that drill work is not always as orchestrated as we think....partners doing drills can offer resistance too....a random attack that needs to be dealt with is often employed.

Yes....sparring is a valid tool in learning vision....but it's not the only way....and I think we should all be conscious that sparring does actually hold negative points as well......

The Wolf

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#135095 - 09/21/04 08:39 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
JKogas Offline
Prolific

Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 10818
Loc: North Carolina
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

Hi gang

John you can be very articulate when you want to be....love your work... [QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:


Thanks. Apologies for harsh words from earlier posts….

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

I did want to make one point, I have also used various training methods...I hold ranks in muay thai and a freesytle karate and I'm now enjoying the freedom of a "street smart system".
Our main focus is drill work.....we do not spar....the theory is because sparring encourages long drawn out confrontations
[/QUOTE]

Those long, drawn out confrontations are important in their own right for all of the reasons stipulated earlier and, mustn’t be overlooked.

I DO understand your point about wanting to end a confrontation quickly – SO DO WE! And we practice for that as well. That program is called the ISR (intercept, stabilize, resolve). But that program doesn’t not replace standard training. The athletes who practice both approaches are much better than do the guys who practice the ISR alone. This is solely because of the attributes developed through sparring. That’s one clear example of why it’s important.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....and also teaches some bad habits relative to the street....ultimately we aim for a submission or bone break....quickly...as soon as the assailant throws a strike, we "swallow it" by entering and we diffuse the situation instantly by controlling the situation with either a choke/submission/etc
[/QUOTE]

The question becomes, how do you TRAIN that without sparring it? You see, I’ve seen COUNTLESS people try practicing such things in dead manners and when they attempted to roll with us live, they were tapped like BABIES! This is because they had no attributes! They had no “game”, if you will. This can’t be created through dead patterns and contrived resistance. It’s not possible. There are too many cases where this has been proven, seen and experienced.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

...rather than keeping the space cushion associated with "stick and move" and ring sports...and trading blows.....There is plenty of pad work as we move through the ranks, that's mainly so that students will be able to read the strikes that come at them
[/QUOTE]

Read the strikes that come at them, yet there are unable to train the all important aspect of COUNTER FIGHTING. The timing just won’t be there as how you’ve described. TIMING is perhaps the single most important attribute of an efficient fighter.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

...not because the aim is to create ring fighters....but to create muscle memory....[b[/QUOTE]

Yes, I’m all too aware of this muscle memory concept. I just don’t agree with you though. Muscle memory created through dead patterns is different than is muscle memory created through alive patterns against real resistance. That’s what you’re just not seeing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The more you see strikes coming at you....the more you will be able to read them.....and evade them
[/QUOTE]

That’s EXACTLY why sparring becomes so important! You’ve just said as much yourself without even realizing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

The point I'm trying to make is....while doing this constant pad work without any sparring.....I found out that I was "reprogrammed" the next time I did put the gloves on for sparring..(around 3 months later)....I found it hard to pull punches....mainly because the pad work is done in a full contact environment
[/QUOTE]

My friend, I’ve been a pad trainer for more than 15 years. I’ve known guys who did NOTHING but pad training. Can you guess what happened to these pad trainers when they finally got into the ring against guys who’d done pad work and tons of sparring?? They were DECIMATED! I can’t stress this enough. I’ve seen it happen with my own eyes. ZERO attributes.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

....I was loosing my sense of "control"....is this a bad thing??? I would much rather be programmed for a "full contact dynamic" in the street...not a touch contact dynamic...my distancing had improved...my evasion had improved......and all of this was because of pad work....not sparring!!!
[/QUOTE]

Pad training teaches basics. After a few weeks, you should drop the pads and spar. You’ll see (and feel) the difference in seconds. Pads are ok and teach tools, but they don’t accurately develop the tools AS YOU’LL USE THEM, unless you spar. It’s like standing beside a pool and pretending to swim compared to getting into the water and doing actual SWIMMING. Which is going to make you a better swimmer??? It’s just COMMON SENSE my friend.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

This type of training is not for everyone.....I personally have no intention of ever fighting in a ring.....obviously, sparring is very necessary in the sporting world.....However,I can seen the negatives that sparring and sport for that matter has on various martial arts.....for example....when was the last time that you sparred and did not use the "stick and move" principal.....when was the last time you sparred with open hands.....when was the last time you sparred someone who was not using the same rules as you.....when was the last time you sparred without a time limit..... I've never seen a street fight last more that 15 seconds!!!
[/QUOTE]

Friend, sparring takes many forms. But merely TELLING you about it isn’t going to properly relay what I’m saying. Have you ever done any vale tudo sparring? If not, I’d recommend it. The experience is going be the teacher, not the words FROM the teacher, get it? That’s what you’re robbing yourself of if you don’t spar.

Sparring should have variable rules. Don’t try and pigeon hole sparring as just one thing, or one way. You’ll miss the boat by doing that. Find a good MMA coach who can show you these things.

I understand that fights don’t last that long, but unless you actually TEST your technique, you’ll not know how well YOU can fight or if you’re any good at all. That’s what sparring is for man, it’s just a TEST! Take it for what it is.

You may be surprised to learn that 90% of what we do is drilling. That’s insanely important (alive drilling that is). However, to not test is ridiculous! Sparring is that test. Do you not test yourself?


[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:

hmmmm food for thought.....and can I also say that drill work is not always as orchestrated as we think....partners doing drills can offer resistance too....a random attack that needs to be dealt with is often employed.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds as if you’re getting closer to sparring there bro [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Yes....sparring is a valid tool in learning vision....but it's not the only way....and I think we should all be conscious that sparring does actually hold negative points as well......

The Wolf
[/QUOTE]

Sparring does more than teach vision, it teaches the “what is” of fighting, without which you won’t be able to actually APPLY fighting skill or develop attributes for fighting.

Sparring holds VERY few negative points and that then, depends only on how it’s done (any given TKD sparring class is a bad example for the most part).


-John

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#135096 - 09/21/04 10:29 PM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hi again

No appology is required John, I'm happy to be having this discussion...and thank you for your input...

I think we may have a different opinion on what sparring is!!
I consider a LIVE mini scenario to be a drill...for example....the attacker throws a flurry of punches (LIVE punches)....and the student needs to control this...in some manner...

Although this is live....I don't consider this to be sparring....especially because it ends up in some type of control.....not a continuous structure of trading blows...

Yes I do spar on occasion (muay thai, kickboxing, boxing)and I can only really speak of my own experience...the pad work has definately improved my fighting skill (or ability to spar) without actually learning sparring (if that makes sense).....

But still there are limits...
I can visualise an opportunity for takedowns and a type of control....yet the "rules" that we are sparring by forbid me to do so....

It's the notion that some techniques are "forbiden" or "restricted" that is programmed into students that regularly spar that is part of the problem...
I believe that you fight the way you train...especially under the influence of an adrenal dump....when your gross motor skills are diminished....you can only rely on what comes naturally (muscle memory)...some people call this instinct....

If the assailant has no concept of martial arts (generally, street thugs don't have the discipline to study martial arts)....they will have no concept of sparring...they will not agree to the rules.....they have no concept of stick and move....they are not honorable enough to avoid groin strikes (eyes, throat).....

Sparring (specifically ring sparring)is not the only method of reality type training...

What do you think?

The Wolf

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#135097 - 09/22/04 01:05 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
Anonymous
Unregistered


John,
Thanks for your response to my questions.
I'd like to take a moment to clarify something I wrote. When I wrote

"I think life in general is a pretty good test and probably just as much a battlfield as the ring."

I did not mean fighting in the street as a test of effectiveness. I'm not a Combat survival kind of guy. I'm more of a dead forms occaisional Gracie seminar guy. beside Green camo pants make my butt look big. What I meant was daily life as a test of our will and character. You know squabbles with the first, second or third wife. Going to work, paying for college or new wheels for the house. Stuff like that.
As I said earlier you are obviosly a deep thinker. What I was hoping to get to was somthing you have touched on before. You refer to the "truth of fighting" and the "what is" of fighting. I'm glad to hear that you place fun as one of the priorities of your training also.
I guess a question that I have for you is about the "truth" as it is expierienced in other arts. Not other fighting arts but arts such as sculpture, economics,medicine, and dance. As an example, the "truth of music" or the "truth of plumbing". How do you imagine your expierience of your art differs from the expieriences of people practicing those other pursuits?
It seems to me that the only limitation to your approach is adding the words "of fighting" after the word "truth".

oldman


[This message has been edited by oldman (edited 09-22-2004).]

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#135098 - 09/22/04 04:36 AM Re: JKD? System or Philosophy
MuayThai Offline
Professional Poster

Registered: 08/20/03
Posts: 2242
Loc: UK
[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Wolf:
I hold ranks in muay thai [/QUOTE]

How can you hold ranks in Muay Thai? I am VERY confident that there are no such things in Muay Thai. Individual gyms do "create" a grading structure for teh sake of class but they are meaningless outside of the gym where they are created. Unless you are ranked in the Offical fighter Rankings...

....I dunno, grading doesnt exist in Muay Thai.

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